EP #143: Analog vs. DIGITAL Concrete Formwork

Seth Tandett (00:00)Welcome to another episode of the Concrete Logic Podcast. And today I have Darren Baldwin. He's president of PICUS. They're a 3D concrete products company, headquartered in Utah. And we're going to talk about analog versus digital concrete formwork. And you're probably like, what the heck is that? Well, Darren's going to tell you what that is here in a second. So hang on. But before we get started,I just wanted to remind you how to support the podcast. If you're listening to this and you haven't done one of these three things, you need to do it after you hear your options. So the first thing you can do is if you enjoyed today's episode or any of the episodes you listened to, need to share the podcast with a colleague or a coworker. The next thing you can do is if you go, we have a website.www.concretelogicpodcast.com. And in the top right hand corner, I'm looking at it right now, there's a blue button that says donate. 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And then if you like the format that we do for the podcast, as far as, you know, I bring folks like Darren in.and we talk about a topic and educate you on a topic. If you like that format and you're an engineer and you need to get professional development hours, we do have a way for you to do that through the ConcreteLogicAcademy.com. So check that out as well. All right, that's enough selling today for me, Darren. So we're gonna talk about analog versus digital formwork. What the heck does that mean?Darren Baldwin (02:28)Very simply, Seth, analog versus digital formwork. We're used to analog, right? Boards and aluminum forms. We handle those with our hands. And it's real and it's tangible and it's analog. digital formwork, though, is very different in that it exists in ones and zeros. Imagine your 3D model, right? That's your digital formwork. Much more fluid. You can...You can save a digital form work if you get a custom, say you get a custom concrete item done and then someone crashes into it. Like we had here in Lake Eola in Florida, we had a 5K race and a truck backed into a unique concrete piece, Seth. And they called us two years later after that install and they said, hey, do you still have that form? The answer is yes, because it was digital. It's a digital form. So we just.Seth Tandett (03:15)Ha ha.Right?Darren Baldwin (03:20)We just hit print two years later and we send them the item. Custom unique piece. That's the difference, know, digital.Seth Tandett (03:26)Wow. From the time they calledyou to the time you delivered, how long was that, Darren?Darren Baldwin (03:32)first time around five weeks you're talking about when that when the piece broke two years later yeah in a matter of weeksSeth Tandett (03:37)Yeah.Yeah, that's cool.Darren Baldwin (03:42)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's easier to store, easier to move, and easier to change digital formwork. is. So, and that's why, you know, architects are waking up to the benefits of digital formwork versus analog. It's the ability to control the design, to achieve a design and a curve or a uniqueness about something they're looking to achieve.Seth Tandett (03:50)Yeah.Right. So we're talking about 3D printing.Darren Baldwin (04:14)Well, yes, in this case, that's how we use digital formwork. There's probably other ways to do it. I've seen other ways, whether it's extruding via print nozzle, right? That's how we do it in Salt Lake City. And it could be done in other ways, but that's one of the primary ways it's done in concrete these days is through 3D concrete printing.Seth Tandett (04:35)So how do you explain this to architects? And when do you use this versus when it doesn't make sense to use it?Darren Baldwin (04:45)Yeah, yeah, that comes down to economics, Seth. And today we are very competitive when it comes to unique designs. So when we talk with architects, we say, hey, if it's unique and it's organic, 3D concrete prints, away to go. If it's highly repeatable and nothing is changing about the design and shape,maybe precast makes sense. And obviously cast in place makes a lot of sense for structures and reinforcing, so structural. But where you don't require structural reinforcement and it's highly unique, that's where 3D Concrete Print can play a role in fitting that need. And so we're finding use cases in interiors and mostly landscapes.all being architectural concrete.Seth Tandett (05:37)So can you talk about some of the limitations with what we're calling analog form work versus what you can do with digital?Darren Baldwin (05:45)Yeah, so when you think of concrete, right, we're used to analog formwork and we're used to repeatability of that formwork. We use that formwork over and over. With digital, it's true that you can use the same digital file, the 3D model, over and over. But one of the advantages is you can make changes and adjustments. We have aa project right now where we're finishing a 2000 linear feet of non-repeatable seat wall that all has integrated LED lighting. And it is morphing and changing from plan view and from elevation view the whole time. So it's tapering and curving, diving and moving up and down, left and right. What's also happening, Seth, is it's doing all of this on top of grade changes. So it's not on a flat plane.Now when you're doing precast, it sure is nice to have a flat plane because you want to have a form and you want to repeat it over and over. If you use that form and you go from a 3 % grade to a 2 % grade to a 1.5 % grade and then to a 1, back up to a 4 % grade for ADA reasons, In theory, your fitment's going to be off or you have to come up with new forms. With 3D Concrete Print, we make those adjustments in the file to follow the grade as it moves.and flows, all while keeping vertical lines at our seams.That's the advantage of digital formwork in that particular use case.Seth Tandett (07:13)Gotcha. So this is, I think we said it, this is, your best use case is architectural concrete. So what a...When I think of architectural concrete, I mean, it comes in.number of different forms. So it could be just the finish. So we can use a standard formwork and we can rub it and patch it and make it nice and shiny as best as we can. And then there's, you know, there's, I've done self-consolidating concrete, which then you need special formwork to handle the pressures of that.So those are, I guess I'm naming some limitations there for the cast in place version. Are there any limitations to doing it with 3D print or what we're calling digital version?Darren Baldwin (08:01)Certainly one of the limitations is going to be know how and understanding of how to change the digits right on the design side. So it's a heavier design lift. Design and engineering can all be done digitally. So we were doing full destructive testing, but the limitation is right on destructive testing, you could do FEA analysis on almost any kind of structural concrete these days because there's plenty of data.available.We're having to do full-size destructive testing because the data from a structural engineer's perspective is not available.And so that would be one of our limitations is under a structural use case. We, I don't think anyone in the world hardly has data for what's going to happen. And so we've had to, you know, build in that timeline. For example, we, if someone came to me today and said, I need to retain 48 inches of soil behind a planter wall. If someone came to you, Seth,Seth Tandett (08:40)Yeah.Darren Baldwin (09:04)There's plenty of use cases for managing 48 inches of soil, right? For structurally reinforced concrete. For 3D concrete print though, not as much data out there. So that certainly would be a situation where digital would be limited.Seth Tandett (09:19)Right. So you're not taking test cylinders of your product?Darren Baldwin (09:25)I didn't say that. We are.We do crush tests every day. So every day we take two by two cubes and we crush those.Seth Tandett (09:29)Yeah.like grout cubes. Okay, I gotcha. Then when you say, what'd you call it? The destruction test, what'd you call that?Darren Baldwin (09:35)Yeah, exactly like the graph test.Yeah, we we do a full size print of a maybe a typical cross section. And then we would bring it to destruction. So under a soil loading situation, we might build a sideways frame is how we built and tested this previously. And we loaded up with sandbags and let it set over the weekend and see how it performed. And in some cases, we'll load it up to to.point of destruction and just see what's the full mass that it can handle at one time.Seth Tandett (10:16)Huh. But you've been doing this for a while, so you probably, I mean, do you have to do this every single time or do you got, you got...Darren Baldwin (10:17)Mm-hmm.You are right in that after you have tested certain cross-sections and certain geometries, you begin to be aware of the kind of loads it can handle and manage.Seth Tandett (10:36)Yeah.And the engineers and architects, they're accepting your data without any pushback. just say, Darren's a good guy. We trust him.Darren Baldwin (10:46)Well, you are right under international building code, anything over 48 inches would have to have an engineer stamp, right? Under 48 inches is the discretion of the owner, right? So we have brought in our engineers and can get stamps based off of the data that we are collecting under their council.Seth Tandett (10:53)Uh-huh.Darren Baldwin (11:09)So, yeah, that would come down to the specific structural engineers tolerance for risk and how much testing they want to do. But we can certainly under every project provide an engineer stamp if necessary.Seth Tandett (11:21)Yeah. percentage-wise, the products that you're making, are they more structural or architectural? What's the split there?Darren Baldwin (11:33)Yeah, we don't do anything today that would that anyone would call structural, although we all know that every everything has some amount of structure that it needs to manage when when I say structural in general, you know, for example, if there was a stadium project, we would never look at doing anything that that would hold up stadium seats, although we might consider doing the bench tops. And we have done that for a stadium.And so it's even the structure of the seat itself. We do BFMA testing, which is recognition of there's a standard in North America for the amount of the size of a sandbag that we dropped from six inches above the bench and see how it handles that kind of abuse. yeah, so there are some structural load requirements for seating, but for the most part, you're right. We are sticking to what is considered site work.and what would be considered site furnishings, maybe some facade walls on an interior. We've done some of those in an aquarium. So more and more use cases are accumulating. In some cases, we'll do, we got asked to do a 12 foot large fire pit at a stadium. And because it was such lightweight, because we're printing hollow, we were able to delete the stem wall.because this was going to be cast in place. And as a result, it simplified the construction schedule for the GC as they didn't have to navigate stem wall and gas line, right? They could just stuff up the gas line on the site work slab and then set this hollow fire pit that's 3D printed in concrete over top of the gas line.Seth Tandett (13:15)That makes sense. We did an episode back in, we were trying to figure out the time, but near the end of 2023, episode 71, and we discussed, I told you back then, I'm skeptical of 3D printing, and I asked you to come on the show and convince me otherwise, and you came on, you did a great job, you said, hey, this is our use case of...Essentially, you're pre-casting or printing products in a warehouse just to catch everybody up. I did a bad job. We were assuming everyone listened to that episode. So that's what PICUS does. They print them in a warehouse and then ship it everywhere in the United States. Are you shipping beyond that now? Not yet?Darren Baldwin (14:02)We have an opportunity in Los Cabos, Mexico. So if that helps upset, I'll probably ask you to come down and help out with that. Mostly know you in the United States.Seth Tandett (14:11)⁓ okay. Sounds good.Yeah. And I thought that was a very unique way of using 3D printing versus what we've been seeing out there in the world. so again, getting back to the analog versus digital. So I...I kind of helped you. I teed it up as far as what are some limitations of analog and asked you some limitations of digital. What other use cases have you run across that you find that this technology is better use?Darren Baldwin (14:44)Yeah, when you think of remodeling, we're often limited in remodels by access. So think of cranes that exist during new construction aren't there during remodels usually. So our ability to get concrete in a freight elevator and use a freight elevator to do, in this case, barbecue stations or column wraps.or interior facade walls, because our units are one sixth the weight of precast on a comparable constructability, we're able to get a lot of units into remodels and rebuilds, repositioning projects that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.Seth Tandett (15:30)Yeah.because of the, you're able to print these in multiple pieces and then you put them together once you get it to the location. Is that what you're, yeah. And then they're much lighter than standard precast mix or concrete mix. So you're able to move them around.Darren Baldwin (15:40)That's Yeah.Seth Tandett (15:50)Last time we spoke, were, I don't know if we said it on the podcast, but we were discussing actually creating form work with the digital side of things and then filling that up with your standard concrete mix. Is there any developments there since we spoke?Darren Baldwin (16:09)Great question. Our founder thought that getting into vertical work and doing columns as a leave-in-place form could present an opportunity. looked at one of our challenges certainly is the shape that our formwork can be in and still achieve.loads, right? Because a liquid head exerts a lot of pressure. And so what we identified in short was that circular farm work is a must-have, at least today, in doing this at all. The marketplace for circular farms or organic farmsI don't think exists at all. It will only be produced by taking it to specifiers. And so because we are, we remain very focused on architectural concrete for landscapes and interiors, but not yet structures. I see it as a whole separate decision maker and influencer. I do think there's a use case, Seth, forSome high end lobbies, some high end retail spaces that could use say a candy cane twisted column that's actually structurally even place concrete. It's a whole separate business that we are not pursuing rightSeth Tandett (17:27)Gotcha.Darren Baldwin (17:27)But it's possible. So if you have any listeners that want a candy cane shaped column, it would have to drop into our lap kind of thing. We're not pursuing it today.Seth Tandett (17:27)Yeah.Yeah, I gotcha. Or it sounds like a round column. Possibly could work.Darren Baldwin (17:41)That's right. In most columns, mean, none of us would be surprised that designers and specifiers are very efficient to design within the limitations of what they know. And today, most of them don't know about 3D concrete print. And so they're designing two squares, they're designing two rectangles and hard edge shapes that happen to come to existence because of boards, board forms.aluminum forms and that's what they know right and so that's why columns look that way.Seth Tandett (18:10)Yeah. Yeah, that's all. There we go. We stumbled across the limitation.Darren Baldwin (18:17)Yeah. So if you want to do a square, the most efficient way to do a square or rectangular column is with the technology we're used to using in SAINF. That's a place.Seth Tandett (18:19)Any anythingYeah, I thinkwe established in that first episode you did with us that if it's not a, if you're just doing your standard structural elements in a building, to me it doesn't make sense. And I think you agreed, still agree with the line of work you do. So you're looking for a unique architectural feature thatis not necessarily a structural element of the building that the architect wants to scribble out. Sounds like he's got almost unlimited ways and angles that he can or he or she can do or draw up and send it to you and you can make it happen.Darren Baldwin (19:13)Yes.Seth Tandett (19:14)Yeah. All right. Well, what else do we want to do? Anything else when you're talking to architects about analog versus digital form work that comes up that you want to cover today before we take off?Darren Baldwin (19:30)Yeah, I would say that one of the interesting things about working in digital formwork is that it coordinates well with other materials. We have a project right now that is literally printing today that's integrating with millwork. So imagine an interior lobby, come into a remodel in Austin, Texas for a headquarters and they have this desk that starts attypical desk height that it morphs and shifts down to ADA height and then continues to morph and shift and becomes a wrap around the main staircase, comes to the other side of staircase and becomes a planter wall. And all of this is integrated with millwork. And we think about integrating these kinds of materials, they're building in their factory, this millwork, we're building in our factory all of this concrete.And it's all coming together in a job site and marrying up in very precise ways. I think the collaboration of digital formwork certainly lends itself to these kinds of opportunities.Seth Tandett (20:35)Yeah. So that's like a, I guess, a reception area? that what you're describing? Yeah.Darren Baldwin (20:41)It is, yeah, it's asecurity and then they do some package shipping and receiving stuff as well as the main entrance that goes up the staircase.Seth Tandett (20:50)Yeah.Darren Baldwin (20:51)It's definitely a sculptural feature to the main entrance.Seth Tandett (20:54)Yeah, well, follow you on LinkedIn and you always post, I mean, that's what I think of when I see your stuff is it's very artistic most of the time. ⁓ So, all right. Well, I'm glad we've I'm glad we got caught up. Sounds like things are still going in the direction that you and I discussed a couple of years back and finding.Darren Baldwin (21:02)Right.Yeah, it certainly.Seth Tandett (21:20)the right projects to spend your time on. But if folks want to reach out to you, Darren, and learn more about Pike, what's the best way?Darren Baldwin (21:29)Yeah, best way is to just ping me, Darren, at picas3d.com or direct message me on LinkedIn. Those would be the two best ways to reach me. If you have a project that's brewing or if you have further questions about how you use digital formwork to design whatever you want in concrete, you can reach me there.Seth Tandett (21:51)Yeah, it's a different way of thinking. All right, Darren, I appreciate you coming on the show today. And yes, sir. And folks, until next time, let's keep it concrete.Darren Baldwin (21:54)Yeah.I forgot myself.