EP #149: Got a Low Concrete Break? Here’s What To Do Next

Seth Tandett (00:00)And welcome to another episode of the Concrete Logic Podcast. And today I have a new guest, Josh Agee. He is the Concrete Quality Assurance Manager for F.A. Wilhelm Construction. He can tell us a little bit about himself here in a minute. But today we're going to talk about, this is a, actually a guest request. I got an email from somebody wanting to talk about this. So you get a break report back.and it's low. Now what? That's what we're going to talk about today. So when you get a low cylinder brake on a concrete project, we're going to talk about what you do, how you troubleshoot it. Is it the mix? Is it the placement? Is it how the test was performed or how the samples were taken? It's a fun subject for concrete folks.But before we get into it, I just want to remind everybody how you can support the podcast. So if you go to concrete logic podcast.com, you will go at the top of the page. And this is what someone did to send me a topic suggestion is if you go to concrete logic podcast.com, there's a and I'm going to it now so I can talk to you while I'm doing it.Up at the top, there's a menu. It says contact. If you click on that, a window will pop up and it's like sending me an email. So that's one way you can get a hold of me. And then the second way is there's a, on the bottom right hand corner, there's a little microphone symbol. If you click on that, that's like leaving me a voicemail. And what we're looking for is topic or guest suggestions. just reach out, tell me what you want to hear. Always like to hear from.from folks that are following along and we can do the topics or the guests that you want to hear from. that's what that is one way to support the podcast. The second way is on the same homepage, there's a donate button. the idea there is if you get some value out of the podcast, you can...give some value back I need to thank a couple folks for donating. ⁓ Josh Bong donated to the show. I want to thank Josh. Josh been a long time supporter of the podcast. He's also a member of the Concrete Academy.Josh Agee (02:06)Yeah, absolutely.Ahem.Seth Tandett (02:20)which I'll talk a little bit about as well.we also got a donation from Tom Cummings. He's also been a long time supporter of the podcast. so I want to thank Tom, and, thank Josh. Thank you very much for your donation. that's greatly appreciated. so if you want to hear your name on the podcast, you know, donate, I'll say your name out there and thank you as well.So those are the two ways to support the podcast. And then the third way, if you enjoy this, you know, this kind of format, we're doing the same thing on the Concrete Logic Academy. You can jump on there, ConcreteLogicAcademy.com and you can watch a video or listen to the podcast and then you take a quiz and typically they're 10 questions long, multiple choice.and quiz you on what the episode was about to make sure you're listening and absorbing what we're discussing. And once you finish that, we can give you a professional development hour or CEU, whatever you need, especially for your professional engineers out there. So check that out as well. Okay. With that, let's get into the topic at hand.Josh, you were telling me this topic's hitting home pretty close. I guess you're dealing with this right now. So you got a break. So what do we do from here?Josh Agee (03:29)Yes, sir.Yeah.Well, we we start investigating right here. You're a police detective. You got to figure out why what happened Who and then at the end of the day who pays for it, right? So First thing we started with the ready mix company, right? Let's let's look at batch weights. Let's look at tickets. Let's look at anything out of the ordinary on that dayright the the driver at a bunch of water what what happened ready mix comes back and says hey man everything looks great on our end you know nothing nothing weird on the batch ticket everything's everything's good i don't know why it's doing that it should be fine okay what next right testing company hey how are the cylinders madeHow are they cured? If it's 80 degrees outside, it's different than if it's 20 degrees outside. So we have to evaluate where were the cylinders stored on site and kind of dig in that way. And then ultimately, it's up to the engineer. ACI recommends evaluating the structure to determine if the strength that we have is acceptable.And if not, then we go further. Swiss hammer, Windsor probe, those kind of tests. And then ultimately, you got to go get your cores and poke holes in the building and take those core samples and test those to see what they break at. And hopefully, they come back.strong enough for the engineer to give you the thumbs up and you keep moving because by the time all that's happened you know unless somebody gave you a stop work order there's another two or three floors stacked on top of these columns or whatever it is you know so quick overview that's the whole that's the whole picture right and then you got to dive in a little deeper on each step soSeth Tandett (05:26)Mm-hmm.Yeah. Solet's talk about the ideal way and we'll kind of, if you don't, I know you can only share so much, but.try to figure out what went wrong. yeah, I think, I don't know, I think at least you hit this at least once a job, it seems like. It seems like there's at least one low break that everybody's gotta get knots in their stomach about and try to figure things out. So we were talking a little bit before we hit record was.Josh Agee (05:49)Mm-hmm.Seth Tandett (06:01)You know it starts at that pre-poor meeting You know who's who's in the room like did we get do we have the right folks in the room and Talking about you know this is when we're pouring concrete the day of this is these these are the steps and these are the Things that should be going on and everybody kind of nods their heads. So you were sharing with me you guys do that as aevery day or for each project and every time so so the so but you made a great point what what are what are things that need to be said or done in the pre-poor meeting so we avoid or at least know what we're all responsible for doing if there is a low break.Josh Agee (06:26)every time ⁓ yeahYeah, so my standard questions along with, how often are we testing? Is it every 50 or every 100 cubic yards, right? All that sort of thing. Where are we storing the cylinders? That's my question. And sometimes the testing company looks at me and says, I don't know, right?Alright, we'll help you. We'll figure it out together. Other times they come out and say, we're going to bring a cure box to the site and we're going to put it over there next to the trailer. Perfect. Sounds great. But kind of like what we were talking about before you hit record was the people in the pre-pour meeting are not always the same people out in the field come day of the pour, right?They show up, they don't know where the cure box is, that it's over there by the trailer. We're pouring on the other side of the building, so they just shove them off behind the curb over there on the other side of the building. That guy in the field needs to know that there's a cure box plugged in, know, temperature controlled, waiting for you. Just, you gotta walk a little bit, you know. So you talk about it with the...the management team in the meeting. But you gotta communicate back down the chain to the people in the field, you know, doing the work.Seth Tandett (08:07)Yeah, that's a great point.So, and do you in your pre-pour meetings, do you guys talk about when there's a low break and what that procedure looks like? Or do we all kind of go in there with the rosy eyes and we all go, that ain't gonna happen on this job because we're doing all the right things on this one.Josh Agee (08:29)Yeah,we'll cross that bridge when we get there, you know. ⁓ But I can tell you moving forward, we're gonna talk about it little more in depth, you know. If it comes back low at 28, is 56 days still considered acceptable, right? Then what? We're gonna dig in a little more in the future. But in the past, no, we go in there just...Seth Tandett (08:32)That's right.Josh Agee (08:53)kind of assuming everything's going to be good you know maybe that's our mistake maybe it's you know lessons learned or whatever but we will change our ways moving forward for sureSeth Tandett (09:03)Well, think you're better than 90 % of the folks. mean, most folks don't even have the pre-pour meeting. I don't think it's standard practice for majority of the jobs out there. I think if they are done, and I'm sure there's a lot of people yelling at me right now, say, yeah, yeah, we do it. Yeah, you do it just to do it. You go through the motion of doing it, but you don't take the time.Josh Agee (09:21)Heh.Seth Tandett (09:29)I've sat through three hour pre-poor meetings and they're, they're, they're, they're, they can be boring. They can be dense. They can make you fall asleep. but they're, they're, they're, they're very important and you don't realize how important they are till something hits the fan and, and you get a little break and you're like, here we go. And, and yeah.Josh Agee (09:33)yeah, me too.Mm-hmm.Yep.Seth Tandett (09:53)So yeah, having the right people in the room. think that's, a, that, that, that's, it's, it sounds easy to do, but it's really hard. It's really hard to get, you know, you got it, get it scheduled and you got to go, okay, these are the folks that you want in the room. So you want obviously the, the, the concrete supplier, the structural engineer, your guys that are going to be out there in the field, your foreman.superintendent, project managers. But I think, like you said, we kind of overlooked the third party guy. We're looking, hey, who's the head cheese over at the third party company that makes us all feel good that he's coming in and promising us the world? And the guy that we actually need in the room is the guy that's going to be taking the samples. I think that would not onlyJosh Agee (10:33)Yeah.Seth Tandett (10:44)Like you said, he knows the logistics of what's going on on the job site, which is very important. But also you're just starting to build that rapport with him because, you know, we like to beat up on the third party guys when it comes to the cylinders and I'd see the photos in the post on LinkedIn all the time. And like, look at this guy. This guy's an idiot. Look what he's doing. He's, he's stacking cores and our samples in.Josh Agee (10:55)Yeah.Mm-hmm.HehSeth Tandett (11:13)the cure box and doing all kinds of silly stuff. We see it all the time. But that just, you know, just not training these guys the right way or they don't understand how important their job is.Josh Agee (11:28)Yeah, and let me back up for just a little bit. So I, like we talked about before, I did my time. Most of us in the concrete industry either came up through the trades, right? You were in the field, a finisher, a laborer, whatever, or you started off testing concrete, right? And I did my time. I was in the field. I was the guy making the cylinders. So I...Seth Tandett (11:30)Ahem.Josh Agee (11:55)I feel like I could talk about him a little bit because I was that's me, you know. And yeah, I was when I was the guy in the field making the cylinders, I was not the guy in the meetings. Right. And and I think that's that's helpful. Or at least the guy in the meeting to have a follow up, you know, with the guys that are going to be in the field. Right. Hey, this is what we talked about. Here's my notes, whatever the case may be.Seth Tandett (11:59)YouYeah.Josh Agee (12:21)to get everybody on the same page.Seth Tandett (12:23)Yeah.Excuse me. So, yeah, I think that's worth highlighting numerous times about having that guy in the meeting, the actual one that's taking the samples.All right, so we talked about, you gave an overview of the entire process. And we just talked about the pre-pour meeting. And let's go back to trying to investigate a low break and where it stems from. So you checked with the producer. You checked with the third party guy. And of course, everybody'ssays, yeah, it wasn't me. So what do you, yeah, it's you. You, you, you messed up. The concrete contractor messed up, right?Josh Agee (13:03)Yep, everybody's pointing fingers.Yeah.Yeah, except we were we weren't even there we were out on the on the deck pouring and you were over here at the truck tested, you know But yeah, it's always our fault. So We we go in with some non-destructive testing, you know to try to see if that Helps us helps our case at all Do some Swiss hammer and thenSeth Tandett (13:16)Yeah.Josh Agee (13:32)Ultimately, we have to get the core machine out there and take cores. So we like to have a separate third party actually test those cores. So it's a true independent, unbiased opinion, right? We don't want the people that took the cylinders and said they're low to then take the cores and say, yep, these are low too.If that's the case, we want a separate independent to give us unbiased, right? So we get somebody out there with a core machine and take our samples from the area in question. And then I stand there and watch as the core comes out of the concrete to ensure that it is handled per the ASTM, right? Because if you don't follow the ASTM on any of it,It doesn't matter, essentially. So we spend our time watching and they take the cores and they let them get a little bit of moisture conditioning and they put them in a Ziploc bag or a cylinder mold or something to maintain that moisture condition. And they transport it back to their lab. I usually go back when it's...when it's break day and they go to break the course, I check and make sure that they're capped properly. and then they go and break them and I'm standing right there when it breaks and I can look at the core that's broken and see if there's any pop out of the aggregate or if the aggregate sheared, you know what, because that tells you a lot too, right? If, the aggregates popping out, then you don't have a good bond between your paste and your ag. So that couldSeth Tandett (15:09)Yeah.Josh Agee (15:11)be a problem with the mix itself. If the ag is shearing, you have that good bond and your core breaks well, know, above strength or the 85%, then to me that shows me the concrete in the building is sufficient. And we have to get that report and send it to the engineer and make sure everybody is in agreement that the concrete in the building is structurally adequate.Seth Tandett (15:35)Yeah, because that's the most important is the in-place concrete is performing not necessarily the cylinder itself. ⁓Josh Agee (15:41)Yeah.Exactly. Yeah,the cylinders don't matter if the building is good, right?Seth Tandett (15:49)Yeah, yeah. So from that point, if that... So I think you kind of... Kind of went back down both paths there with your answer. So if it's good, we... You know, it's good. We move on, right? And now if we find out that we have bad concrete and are in-place concrete...Josh Agee (16:04)Yeah.Seth Tandett (16:12)it's gotta come out, right?Josh Agee (16:15)Not all the time, but sometimes it depends on the type of concrete it is, right? If it's a vertical element, a column, and now we've spent 28 days waiting on a break result, 56 days waiting on a break result, and now another week or so getting the core and getting it tested, well now you've got, depending on the height that you're building, right, you've got two, three, four more.Seth Tandett (16:17)No.Josh Agee (16:42)floors stacked on top of it. So you really can't, you can't tear it out with ease anyway, right? So sometimes you have to get a carbon fiber wrap around your column or something. But if it's a, if it's a knee wall or a curb or a sidewalk or whatever, and it has that low break, yes, absolutely. It's easier and usually cheaper to just tear it out and start over.Seth Tandett (16:44)Yeah.Yeah.Who? Yeah.Yeah. Who hope we're not doing all this work for a curb. So how many times do you think you've had to do this in your career so far?Josh Agee (17:21)man, coring and all that to that extent. I would not say once a year. ⁓ so I've been in the industry. Yeah, I've been in probably what, what'd we talk about 15, 16, 17 years somewhere in there. I've probably done it, maybe 10 times to that extent, you know, or less.Seth Tandett (17:23)Yeah. Yeah.Yeah, it's it.Yeah, right.⁓Josh Agee (17:44)but we had to do we've had to do the interim right this was a member of the windsor probe the about the evaluation that sort of thingSeth Tandett (17:44)Yeah, so it.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Yeah. Yeah. And usually those help you out, you know, showing that the end places with a non-destructive test that it's, it's up to strength. So, yeah.Josh Agee (17:59)Yeah.Right.Or the rolling average, you know, the statistical outlier of the one test report on Tuesday that was bad, but Monday and Wednesday was good, the rolling average says everything's good. You know, we're within that 500 PSI range, and a lot of times that just makes the issue go away as well.Seth Tandett (18:26)Yeah.So when you come to that low break and you send a, you got to respond to the low break, right? When it's cause it's sent out to everybody in that letter. Is that when you're, you're outlining these, what the plan is? Is that what that letter is saying? Is this is, this is what we're saying or is the, is a letter sent only when those evaluations are done?And then you're responding with, hey, here's the evidence. We're good. Or, no, we're not good. And these are just what we're going to We are proposing to fix the problem.Josh Agee (19:06)Yeah, it depends on the relationships with everybody on the team, right? Certain structural engineers we work with all the time and they know us and we know them and we'll just, we'll skip a couple steps to help the process along and we'll just go ahead and start Swiss hammers potentially coring, whatever. And then other times it's...We're not going to do anything without direction. So we'll send the email or the letter of, we recognize that there is a low break. We'll give some data. We spoke with the ReadyMix company. Here's all the batch weights for the trucks. They think everything's good. How do you want us to proceed?You know, so it just depends really, but we do own a Swiss hammer and I go out there and do it myself even if it's not official, you know? I'll go test it myself just so I can sleep at night. ⁓ I get twitchy when I don't know if the concrete's good or not and if I prove to myself that it's okay.Seth Tandett (19:59)Uh-huh.Yeah, and that way when you're, you know, like you said, you're, you're, when you're going through this process, takes time. So you can't just stop, right? You got to figure out, Hey, do I have a bigger, do I have a big problem or am I confident enough to keep stacking floors on top of, you know, work that is being questioned? So there's a, there's a big risk there.Josh Agee (20:31)Yeah, absolutely.Seth Tandett (20:33)So knowing how to do some of those non-destructive tests like you were saying yourself gives you that confidence that, we don't have a problem. Let's keep going. And we'll go through the steps to prove what our in-place concrete is, how it's performing. So we got a few minutes, Josh. I think what we could do is let's talk about some of the things thatthat we like to or don't like to see. Don't like to see as far as how cylinders are, one, the samples taken, and two, how they're handled. what are the, since you've been on that side of the fence, what are some of the common offenses that we see out there that we can keep our eye out for?Josh Agee (21:16)Yeah, well, get your sample in the middle of the truck. The middle third is the best. ⁓ Make your...Seth Tandett (21:24)And why, whyis that? Let's explain why that is. Why is that?Josh Agee (21:27)Yeah.Well, if you've ever watched concrete come out of the chute, the very first thing that comes down is a whole bunch of rocks, right? ⁓ That's not a very thorough mix. It's not representative of the whole batch. And then the tail end of it, once the whole truck is offloaded, the tail end is usually a bunch of water.Seth Tandett (21:36)Uh-huh.Josh Agee (21:49)So that's not a good representation either. I want a good mix, a good sample that's representative of that mix design. So let's get it out of the middle where we've had good steady flow, then we get a good aggregate to paste ratio to what it's designed to be.Seth Tandett (21:52)Right.Yeah.And your guys that are on the shoot or on the bucket, you know, should be trained to know that so they can say, hey, third party guy, wait before you take, yeah. You don't have to get the first drips that come out of the truck. It's okay. can wait a little bit. Yeah. All right. What's another offense?Josh Agee (22:21)Yep, absolutely. Yeah, ourRight. Yeah, just hang out. Hang out for a minute. Yes. ⁓Just the care of the cylinders themselves, right? The initial, you've rotted the cylinders, you've consolidated them. Hopefully you put a lid on them. You know, I've seen some guys that don't put lids on. You want a lid on it to keep the moisture in. You don't want it all evaporating out, because that's not representative either. So you put the lid on it.and then treat it like a newborn baby. Don't throw your cylinders in your wheelbarrow and push them across the job site when you just made them. So they gotta be handled with care. Every single one them should say handle with care on the side. Because...the aggregate can settle, right? If it's in the wheelbarrow, shaking around across the job site, that aggregate is now settling and it's not gonna be a good representation of the mix. So handle them with care. ⁓ Store them, yeah.Seth Tandett (23:26)Yeah.Whencan you move them? When is a good practice? When can you move them? So you take your cylinder, you put the cap on it, you put it down. When can you move them?Josh Agee (23:40)Well, ⁓immediately, as soon as possible, take it to its initial curing location. Whether that's the cure box that's plugged in at the job trailer or in the job trailer, right? Because the cylinders are like people. They want 60 to 80 degrees, right? So I'm pretty comfortable around 70 degrees in the office, know? Fahrenheit, we're talking.Seth Tandett (23:48)Right.Josh Agee (24:05)Cylinders are like that too. They want they want to be between 60 to 80 unless it's a high strength mix Then it's a 68 to 78 window so take it Take it and immediately put it in that environment. Whatever it is And then leave them don't mess with them Leave them for 24 to 48 hours so come back to the job the next day and pick them up and then againhandle with care. I've seen cylinders picked up the next day that then got chucked in the back of a pickup truck like it was loading firewood. You know, that's not what we're doing, right? So handle with care through the whole process is probably the biggest thing that I see.Seth Tandett (24:46)Yeah. Just trying to think. No other offenses? Just those couple or?Josh Agee (24:53)there's probably more. Labeling, yeah.Seth Tandett (24:55)Yeah.think you covered like themajority of them. Yeah.Josh Agee (25:02)Labelingis a big one. If it's a job site that's placing multiple different mix designs, you know, you have a mix that's placed at 7 a.m. Then you have another mix that's placed at 11 a.m. And you put them all in the same cure box. Make sure they're labeled correctly, you know, so everybody knows what they are. And then when the report comes back, you don't have the results flip-flopped.Seth Tandett (25:08)yeah. Yeah.Yeah.Josh Agee (25:29)Ihave seen that. I assume that's what happened. I can't prove it, but I think I have seen that before.Seth Tandett (25:36)Yeah,that sounds easy to do if you're pouring multiple mixes at the same time. And, you know, they only send one person out there to run around and take it from different locations on the job site. And if it's a big, larger job, that's tough to do. Well, good. think that's a good start on beating that.Josh Agee (25:41)Yeah.Yep.Yeah.Seth Tandett (25:57)Subject up today. I know it's a favorite a favorite of not a favorite. Is it a favorite or not a favorite? I don't know how to how to say that it's it's it's it's There you go It's a common common occurrence and I I'm sorry you're going through it right now Josh. That stinks man ⁓ If folks want to reach out to you and getJosh Agee (26:02)YouIt's one we all deal with, yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Seth Tandett (26:22)more of your perspective since you've been on both sides. worked for a testing agency and now you're working for a concrete contractor. I mean, this is guy that knows both sides. He'd be a good guy to talk to. How would folks reach out to you,Josh Agee (26:37)Really email or LinkedIn so Josh AG on LinkedIn or My email is Josh AG at FA Wilhelm calm Pretty good at pretty good at checking emails and LinkedIn. I'm I'm on there quite a bit. So Reach out to me thereSeth Tandett (26:46)that.Yeah, that sounds great. Josh, thanks for coming on the show today. Appreciate it. And folks, yeah, man. And folks, until next time, let's keep it concrete.Josh Agee (26:57)Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.