EP #166: Can Concrete Heal Itself?

Seth (00:01)And welcome to another episode of the Concrete Logic Podcast. And today I have Nick Karam Business Development Manager at Xypex with me. And we're gonna talk about crystalline waterproofing technology. I was before we hit record, Nick and I were chatting and I was he was like asking me if I'd have heard of Xypex and I kinda chuckled because I I I when I think of Xypex, I kinda think of Kleenex for some reason. I think ofYou know, people don't say, Hey, hand me that facial tissue over there. They say, Hey, g give me a give me that Kleenex. And that's kind of how Xypex is with crystalline waterproofing, at least in my experience. we you know normally run across the elevator pits is what I was sharing with Nick, and and they'd say, Hey, we need Xypex for that. And I don't even think half the world knows un or the people that ask for it know what it actually is. So that's what we're gonna talk about today.whatNick Karam, PE (00:53)Absolutely.Seth (00:54)is crystalline crystalline waterproofing w what what do we mean by that how it how it how it works in in concrete so nick's gonna help us out with that today but before we get started I like I always like to remind you guys how you can support the podcast. The first way and the easiest way is if you enjoyed the show, you want do you want to share it?with a colleague or coworker. So if you get something out of the show, share it. we're on every podcast platform. So all youNick Karam, PE (01:25)Yeah.Seth (01:26)gotta do is look up Concrete Logic, it'll pop up. So that that's the easiest thing you can do. The next thing you can do is if you go to the the home page of the podcast, that's concrete logic podcast dot com. There's two ways that you can get a hold of me. One is at the there's a navigation bar up at the top. If you click onask Seth. There's a little email form that'll pop up. and what I'm looking for there are guest or topic suggestions. So reach out to me, let me know what you want to hear, what you want to learn about, who you want to hear from. that's that's one way you can get a hold of me. The second way is if you don't want to type it out and you like you just like to talk like like myself, I rather sit here talk on the microphone than type a bunch of stuff out. SoThat's why I like the podcast platform. But anyways, if you like to do that and you just want to leave me a message, there's a microphone at the bottom right-hand corner of the same homepage. So you click on that and I'll record your message right over your computer, your phone, whatever you're using while you're on the website. the third way is is to donate to the show. So if you go back to the the homepage, the concrete logic podcast dot com.pa home page, there's there's a couple buttons there. There's a support button and the support buttons for for companies that want to support the show and then there's a donation button. so if you click on that donate button a PayPal page pops up and it it says hey you can you can donate any amount and then that's not there's no set amounts there's some su j suggested amounts there but you can put any amount you want it in there every bit helps.And today I want to thank Ken Tiffany. He's donated to the show. appreciate that, Ken, very much. And he he's also a supporter of the Academy. so don't forget about checking out the Academy. You can join the Academy right now. I think it's still free if you go to concreteschool.co. I think we're around 70 or so members, maybe more. haven't counted in ain a bit, but yeah, join that. same kind of we we discuss the same kind of topics on there. It's in a a more academic format. We got quizzes in there. You can take quizzes. and what we do is we track everybody's progress on the courses that they take and then provide you prov professional development hours if you need them. or you just wannalearn and separate yourself from the rest of the herd out there, become a concrete specialist. That's what the Academy for. So c check out concreteschool.co. I think that's it, Nick. so we're gonna talk about crystalline waterproofing technology. if if you want to talk a little bit about who you are what you do to get us startedNick Karam, PE (04:13)Yeah.Seth (04:13)Tell uswhy you're so smart about crystalline waterproofing and and then we'll roll on from there.Nick Karam, PE (04:20)Yeah, so my career started after I graduated from the Ohio State University with a degree in structural engineering. I worked as a structural engineer for a while for about ten years in the suspended access industry. So I got a lot of experience there in construction, being a subcontractor on, you know, major high rise construction projects. So that was a great experience.Kind of got sick of it though, just being at my desk every day. And so I wanted kind of a change of pace and I looked into more sales engineer roles where I can use my technical expertise but also get out, travel, and see people and develop business. So I did that for a while in fiber reinforced concrete with a company called Becker. We did dramat steel fibers. And then recently, earlier this year, I moved over to Xypex.really cool product, really cool technology, and I cover the Midwest for Xypex. I support three sales folks throughout the Midwest of the country and my role is really to educate engineers you know on the productLuckily a lot of the nose IPEX, like you said, that it is really like the Kleenex of crystalline. So a lot of engineers that wa work on water projects already know us, which is great for me. I do a little less education, just a little more help on their projects, where to use it, and you know, just helping them with specifications and all that. So it's it's a nice role.Seth (05:43)Yeah. Yeah. Well let's talk about that. What is what is a crystalline? what you know, do we put it in the do we mix it up in our concrete before it gets to the job site? Do we apply it afterwards? Maybe it's some of both. Let's tell us a little bit more about that.Nick Karam, PE (06:01)Yeah, so crystalline is used to really protect concrete, not only from water intrusion or extrusion, but also chemicals and sulfates and chlorides, things that really bust up your concrete over time. And so, it's funny I talk to some of my friends or something that aren't in construction, I say, you know, I'm doing concrete waterproofing, you know, and they're like, WellWhy do you need to waterproof concrete? It's it's just you know it's a solid block of mass. And I'm like, well, okay, make a bowl out of concrete, fill it with water, and and let's see if the water's still there, you know, tomorrow. so a lot of people might not know that concrete's porous, it has capillaries. we use a lot of water in concrete to make it workable, right? To be able to place it in the forms, to be able to trowel it, to to place and finish. And soA lot of that water is excess water, water water of convenience. And when that water evaporates out of concrete, you're left with these porous capillaries. You know, so if if water can get out, it surely can get back in. so that's part of you know why this product exists is to protect the concrete. And it's unique in that it's notsomething that you add on top of the concrete, a layer or barrier, like traditional surface membranes or liners that are very labor intensive, that can be susceptible to error, install error, pinholes, anything that you hit it with an excavator, anything that you damage that membrane, now your whole system's kind of damaged and you get delamin delaminations and all that good stuff. crystall's a little different. It's integral to the concrete.And you can apply it in two ways, really as a coating for existing structures or as an admixture for new concrete structures.Seth (07:39)Okay. S so what when we say we add it, well it's an ad mixture, so when we add it, what are we adding? What does it look like and what does it how does how does it activate to do what it's supposedNick Karam, PE (07:52)Right.Seth (07:53)to do?Nick Karam, PE (07:54)So the product is composed of typically an active ingredient. Most of are pre proprietary chemicals. So it's a you know, Xypex has its own formula. our next competitor might have their own formula, but it's proprietary chemicals, usually mineral-based, so stuff you find in everyday life.it comes in a powder form and it's mixed with either Portland cement or a little bit of sand. So does the cement and the sand are more filler and then there's also the active ingredient in there and to get it into the concrete truck you you batch it. they come in water soluble bags. At least our product comes in water-soluble bags, so you can add it directly to the truck with a little bit of water even before the concrete's in there, and then you add the concrete, you mix it up for a good you know five minutes and all that chemical.disperses now through the concrete and your entire you know truckload there is Xypex treated now or crystalline treated. And sohow it works is that that active chemical that you introduce into the concrete it reacts with the byproducts of cement hydration, mostly calcium hydroxide, which is present in the concrete as it hardens, and then water. So we want water to be present because that's what activates that chemical along with the byproducts of cement hydration, and then you get actual crystals, they're long, thin, needle-like crystals that grow inside the concrete, inside all the pores and capillaries.resistant to hydrostatic pressure as well. So they're using a lot of tanks, wastewater treatment plants, etc. So it's integral to the concrete. It kind of changes the structure of the concrete itself. The great thing about it is it'scan be reactivated or s it could self heal. So if you get a new crack that forms down the line and that chemical's still in that concrete, it kind of la lies dormant until water's present. So if you get a new crack and then water gets in there, that will reactivate the chemical and then the crystals will grow and block any further water intrusion. So that's kind of a just of how it works.Seth (09:49)Mm-hmm.Nick Karam, PE (09:50)we actually started as repair company. SoBack in nineteen sixty nine is when we were founded, but we started as a more of a coating system for existing structures. so if you have an existing concrete wall and you wanna waterproof it or repair it, what you can do is basically you need to make it clean, you need to power wash it, you need to get it down to a CSP three, which is like like a 80 grit sandpaper, and there's chips the concrete repair institute has. You can you can buy the chips and they'll tell you like what the what the feeling should be in the look.But really, a power washer tends to do it with the concrete. So you you clean the concrete with the power washer, and at the same time you are etching it to a CSP3 consistency. Then you want to get it to an SSD state, which is saturated surface dry. So you want to basically soak that wall wherever you're whatever you're repairing until it can no longer take on water. Okay, so it typically takes a few hours of of just wetting it. Once it's in the SSD state and it's been cleaned and roughened.you apply the the crystalline. It comes in a powder, but you mix it with water to create to create a slurry coat. And then you can either brush it on, spray it on, trowel it or roll it on with a paint roller.And what that does is allows the chemical that's in there to the fuse into the wall. So the the suction really that you've created by cleaning the wall and and opening up the pores and capillaries and soaking it in water, now that's all gonna draw the chemical into the wall and and now it's in there for life. So so the coating process is more just a a way to get the chemical into the wall.or into the the structure and it's not a barrier. Actually after about twenty one days you can remove that coating. 'Cause we do a lot of swimming pools where they might want to tile over the concrete at you know, after and so if they repair the pool with the coating after twenty one days, once the chemical is in there and set, you can remove the coating and then tile over it and the chemical is there for life. So yeah.Seth (11:46)I gotcha. And whatwhat I there's you know, other products out there other than Xypex. if people are considering different crystalline products, what what should they look out for to make sure they're getting something that ac you know, performs?Nick Karam, PE (12:05)Great question. so there's a lot of performance-based testing out there that we often will we'll have engineers specify certain performance tests so that they know they're getting, you know, a product that's gonna work the best and last. there's a couple out there, there's a D DIN, the DIN 1048, it's a permeability test. It's basically like an eight by eight cube of concrete and they apply about 167 foot head of pressure to it through an apparatus.And they measure how much the water can penetrate into that cube. Okay, and so they have an untreated sample with no crystalline in it. Typically the the water will get in there about three inches deep into that block. And then actually with Xypex, if you use itthe average is about a quarter inch only. So the water simply cannot penetrate that cube. So you can have other manufacturers run that test and see what kind of permeability they get through that test. So that's one of them. The other is the Army probably the most popular one is the Army Corps of Engineers C CRD forty-eight. The s CRD C forty eight test. It's a similar test in that it's a cylinder of concrete and it's six inches deep.And they apply 405-foot header pressure. So it's just an elevated you know pressure, 405 foot of foot head of pressure, water pressure. And so you stick this concrete sample in an apparatus, you apply the pressure, and you're looking to see if the if the water passes through.one thing that we've done is actually modify that test to be a two-inch sample because if you think about it, a lot of rebar and reinforcing steel is only going to be two inches from the from the surface when you have yourSeth (13:42)Yeah.Nick Karam, PE (13:43)concrete cover. Whereas in the standard Army Corps tests, the CRD C48, if you have a six-inch sample and that water gets through five inches, you're still technically passing that test.'Cause w what you need is actually is the untreated sample to leak. So, as part of that test is you have a a sample that's not treated with crystalline, just regular concrete. the water needs to leak through that sample and then you take that same concrete mix, you put crystalline in it, and we need to stop the water now, and that's how you pass. But if the water gets through even five inches of that six inch sample, it's technically gonna pass. But to us that's notIt's not really 'cause you're you're that's too much water intrusion in our eyes, right? You're bringing in sulfates, chlorides, you're you're gonna corrode that reinforcing steel. And reinforcing steel will expand to eight times its size, and you get that's how you get spalling, you know, exposed steel, and then you get a whole whole other set of problems. So with us we modify the test to be just two inches, and we make sure no water can pass through at two inches with four hundred five foot head of pressure. SoThat's one thing. You do the two inch modif modification test on that. sulfate resistance testing. There's there's tests where you can put concrete into a solution of sulfate. We do one with thirty-six thousand milligrams per liter of SL4 solution. One that's untreated, one that's treated, and you can measure kind of c the corrosion.over time of those samples and we see nine tim forty times less corrosion on a on on that test when you use ipex or crystalline. the most prevalent test to to see between crystallineswhat you're actually getting is the loss on ignition test. So you were asking, is this the ACI test? I actually looked it up, it's ACI 3114, something like that, or 311. and there's also a DIN test as well that has that. that has the loss of ignition. But what you do is you take the product, so again it's powder based typically, you bake it in an oven at 1742 degrees.And whatever burns off in that oven is your active ingredient. That's the good stuff, that's what you're paying for. Whatever remains after that, after you put it in that oven, is just your filler. It's your cement or s or some sand. And so a good way to test between different crystallines is to do the loss on ignition test and see how much remains. So with with Xypex, for example, we get about 50% burnoff, or 50% of our product is active ingredient.you can run it with the competitors and see what they get. typically typically a lot a little less than that, but that's the one thing you can do. So there's various tests out there.Seth (16:17)Yeah, I'm not finding the ACI. It looks like ASTM is working on something currently. Yeah, yeah. They're working on something. It'sNick Karam, PE (16:23)A STM, that was it. A STM Cone one four. Yeah.Seth (16:28)They're work it says it's not I guess approved yet, but it's it's in a one I guess a list of the work items. there's a permeability reducing admixture for hydrostatic conditions, ACI two twelve point three.But it says it's a guidance, not a pass fail standard.Nick Karam, PE (16:52)Right. Yeah, I've also seen some ISO, an ISO two nine five eight one test, which is more of a loss on ignition, and then also a DIN, which is more of a EN European test, one nine six dash two, which is a loss on initiation test as well. So a lot of different cement based products will we'll do the loss on initiation test just to check what's what's active and what's more of the filler.Seth (17:18)Right. On like a commercial job, I think most of folks that listen to the podcast are more familiar with a commercial project. Where where is Xypex typically used?Nick Karam, PE (17:31)Yeah. so number one is gonna be any kind of water plant, water treatment facility. just because they have so many water holding structures andand the water will, you know, corrode that concrete over time and now your city is left with a hefty maintenance bill. So the cities really typically will use crystalline and all their water and wastewater plants just to protect the concrete over time. It really reduces their cost of ownership and their maintenance over time. reservoirs, dams, tunnels.foundations, underground foundations, underground parking garages, anywhere you're anywhere where the groundwater is an issue. we've even done some large slabs and data centers where they have corrosive soils. And just to prevent anything from getting up into the co through the concrete, they actually put zypex in the entire slab to to prevent that. A little less common in slabs, but a lot of underground foundations. Actually we started, you mentioned elevator pitsWe started doing elevator pits in the early seven you know, in the seventies when the product first came out. It kinda got its got a start in elevator pits, but it's since moved on to other foundation elements, marine structures, and then you know, w water, wastewater facilities, tunnels and reservoirs, anywhere you're trying to keep water out really, or keep it in is is a good use for Xypex.Seth (18:48)Beforebefore you decide that you're gonna add a crystalline to the concrete, is there something that is there something you need to consider? Is there a water cement ratio that needs to be in between? is there workability issues that you need to keep in mind? What's what's things like that you need to consider before just saying I'm gonna put some crystalline in my concrete?Nick Karam, PE (19:11)Yeah,no good qua a lot of people ask those kind of questions. Obviously they're they're concerned about the finish. luckily Xypex has been around almost sixty years. It doesn't interact with any other admixtures, no negative effects, it doesn't affect your slump, your finishing, your your bleed water, anything like that. So it really has little to no effect on on the mix itself, which is nice. You're really only adding a a one percent dosage.of your cementitious material. So let's say you have a six hundred pound cement mix. You're we're gonna count fly ash, so like a fume all the cementitious materials that you might add, we're gonna count those typically. but one percent. So you're looking at you know maybe six five to seven pounds that you're adding per cubic yard. So it's quite a quite a small dose. Xypex is all mineral based so it really doesn't affectslump or or workability, anything like that. So that's good. And we're using over a hundred countries. Have never seen an adverse effect with any other admixture either. So so it's kind of kinda great to have that. And yeah.Seth (20:17)Is I've had some, let's say, challenging owner representatives in in my when I was in operations and oversaw projects. So I I I haven't I haven't run across this scenario, but I'm just thinking if I ha if if we had crystalline waterproofing on a job, I could see one of these guys asking. It is first of all, is there a is there a cure time when this stuff is like you can say it's acactivated or does it you were saying that needs ironically needs water to actually be activated, which you're trying to prevent water from getting i in the concrete. So that's kind of funny.Nick Karam, PE (20:55)Yeah, right. Yeah.Seth (20:58)s so is there there's a certain cure time like if you're doing an elevator pit, it d is there a a t a period of time where you you say, hey the Xypex is in there but it's not or it's in there but it hasn't started doing its thing yet?Or i it just needs to have the water at some point after it the concrete has cured after s you know, say seven days. Does a seven day cure it's in there and it it's ready to go? Is that aNick Karam, PE (21:28)So typically if you use it as an admix, the crystals will start growing immediately because there's waterSeth (21:33)Okay.Nick Karam, PE (21:33)present. now once it gets introduced to hydrostatic pressure, so say you do an above-ground tank, you pour the concrete, the crystalline's in there, crystals start to form by the by the little amount of water that's present, you know, in the mix already.Then you fill the tank, you might actually see some leaks at that point on day one. So the unique thing about crystalline versus like a membrane or a liner, the strongest point of a membrane or a liner or a coating system, a traditional system is day one. Those just get weaker over time, they need be replaced. With crystalline, it's almost the reverse. The weakest it'll ever be is day one. Okay, so you fill that tank, say there's a hairline crack somewhere, and we say we can heal a half a millimeter crack.cracks, so point five millimeters within two to two and a half weeks. Okay, and that's under hydrostatic pressure.And so we have several instances where they might fill a tank and you have either some coal joints or some hairline cracks and you'll see some water getting through and then they'll come back two weeks later and that those cracks will have healed. And so it takes a little bit of time for that crystalline to grow and block the water. But once it does, that's it, and then the you know it it's it's sealed up. And then the the great thing about it is the chemical is in that concrete and so if another crack occurs somewhere down the linethree years later and and water gets into that crack and is leaking a little bit, if you wait two weeks, that crack will seal up as well. So it's kinda like Roman concrete where it heals itself and yeah. Okay. Yeah you're right,Seth (23:05)Allegedly. Allegedly.Nick Karam, PE (23:08)yeah.Seth (23:09)So you beat me to the punch. So they w when you do like you know, you were just saying a leak test. So so if someone has a job that has crystalline and in it and they do the leak test and that thing leaks the initial test, you're saying that's a good thing, it it leaks and then and then once you do that test again that there shouldn't be a leak at that spot again 'cause of the theCrystalline has is been activated. Is thatNick Karam, PE (23:39)Yeah.So I mean as soon as water hits it it'll be activated and it'll start to grow. It just takes time for the crystals to grow and toSeth (23:46)Uh-huh.Nick Karam, PE (23:47)to actually block the in the water intrusion, especially under h hydrostatic pressure. SoYeah, about two week two and a half weeks is what we published at you know, if you get a crack up to half a millimeter wide, which is ba about the thickness of a credit card. So if you can fit your, you know, credit card in there it's maybe a little too wide and then that's a whole nother story. We have repair products to repair cracks and all thatSeth (24:08)Right.Nick Karam, PE (24:09)stuff. But it's a hairline crack,the water will get in there, the crystalline will be activated, and it takes about two, two and a half weeks for that crystalline to grow enough to block the water. So yeah. Yeah.Seth (24:20)Okay. So bwould best practice be to fill that tank, let it sit there for two and a half weeks and thenNick Karam, PE (24:26)Typically.Seth (24:27)and and then drain the tank and then do it again? Is thatNick Karam, PE (24:31)They would ki typically just keep it keep it filled. let the crystalline do its thing and thenSeth (24:34)huh. Okay.Nick Karam, PE (24:37)it would just stop leaking, you know. And and it's it's not a it's not like it's gushing out water or anything, you know, typically with the hairline.Seth (24:43)No, yeah.Nick Karam, PE (24:44)It's a small leak, so they can typically keep it filled and then over time, up you know, two and a half weeks, maybe less, that crack will will heal and stopSeth (24:53)Uh-huh.Nick Karam, PE (24:54)leaking. So yeah, we typically keep the w keep the tank filled at that point. Yeah.Seth (24:58)All right. Put that in yourschedule. Make sure you guys got that in your schedule if you got this stuff. If you gotta do leak tests.Nick Karam, PE (25:04)Why?Seth (25:05)But I guess that's better than having to do if you got cracks, you know. I think i every one of those jobs where you ha you're you're you have a concrete structure that's holding water, you you have you gotta have some money in there to do some crack repair 'cause, you know, crack you know, concrete cracks.And so I don't that's the first time I've heard of that approach. But again I'm I'm not I haven't done a lot of water w or wastewater work, so is that nor is thatNick Karam, PE (25:35)Yeah. And on the flip side,you know, if they do a traditional system, they typically have to wait twenty eight days for the concrete to fully cure before they install,Seth (25:43)Uh-huh.Nick Karam, PE (25:44)you know, a membrane or a liner or a coating.Seth (25:46)Right.Nick Karam, PE (25:46)So overall schedule is typically reduced. If they can use it, you know, in the admix it'll start w you know, start kinda growing right away. and then when they introduce the hydrostatic pressure it'll just accelerate that growth over time.Seth (25:59)Yeah.Yeah. Yeah, that's why I've seen it before is where they're like, Hey, we're gonna put they don't again, they don't say crystalline waterproofing, they say Zy Xypex. Hey, we wannaNick Karam, PE (26:09)Okay.Seth (26:09)hey, we wanna get rid of the g waterproofing guy so he's not messing around with the elevator pit. Let put we wanna Xypex this and then then you tell how much it cost, 'cause it you know, in my experience it's not cheap.You got you you got what you guys sell it to the Ready Mix guy and then the Ready Mix guy marks it up and makes make he's making some money on it. And then, you know, we mark it up and then tell the G C hey this is this is the cost. And like, well maybe we'll we'll go ahead and put that waterproofing membrane.Nick Karam, PE (26:36)Ha ha.Seth (26:37)But but I yeah, I haven't haven't haven't seen it in a while, butis we're getting near near the end of the episode here. Is there is there one thing that you you want folks to remember from from our talk today?Nick Karam, PE (26:52)Yeah, just to consider, you know, crystalline as a as an alternative to your traditional membranes and coatings and do the labor savings, you're typically gonna save you know, suthe the product's expensive per cubic yard, but if you compare it to the labor and the and the time it takes to do the the coatings and the liners and and even that they're not permanent, you have you have to replace them, you have to you know and if you backfill then you have to excavate just to just to repair a lining. So I would say think about the long term cost benefits of crystalline and the the maintenance reduction. And then also just that, you know, not all crystallines are created equal and to look at some performance based testing and specificSpecifications is is often done in you know when I did fiber, you know, that was huge performance-based testing you can really get down to which fiber is performing compared to another one. So same thing with crystalline, you want to really look at those performance-based tests. But yeah, if if anyone has further questions they could reach out to me. I'd be happy to help. SoSeth (27:49)Yeah, howthat you be you again, you beat me to it again, Nick. How how what what's what's the what's the best way folks to reach out to you? What's your preferred way?Nick Karam, PE (27:58)I would say, you know, email would be great. So it's just my name, Nick dot carum at zypex.com. So quite simple. you can email me. I'd be happy to talk on the phone as well. number's two one six-nine five six one one zero five. if anyone wants to give me a call. But yeah, email or phone call would be great. And thanks again for having me on. I enjoyed it.Seth (28:21)great. Yeah, no, I appreciate you coming on. Yeah. Definitely re reach out to Nick. We'll have a Nick will have his own page on the website. we'll have a link to that and I'll have all of his contact information for y'all to reach out to him and and ask reach out to him and learn more about Xypex. Nick, thanks for coming onNick Karam, PE (28:40)Sweet.Seth (28:40)the show today. Appreciate it.Nick Karam, PE (28:42)Thank you, Seth. Go buckeyes.Seth (28:43)Andyeah, go buck. Yeah, you see my my thing up there, don't ya? Yeah,Nick Karam, PE (28:47)Yeah, I see it. I see it.Seth (28:48)that's my my wife added. She's like, You need more stuff in your background. allNick Karam, PE (28:52)Ha ha.Seth (28:53)all the all the national championships for the buck guys back there.Nick Karam, PE (28:56)I can't.Seth (28:58)all right, folks, until next time, let's keep it concrete.