EP #172: Is Your Concrete Mix Eating Your Formwork?

Seth (01:43)And welcome to another episode of the Concrete Logic Podcast. And today we have a special episode. We're live, I think. We may be live. We may we may not be live. Who knows? But I have Ken Pratt with us along with Jonas DeWeber. these guys are coming in. what we're gonna talk about today is why don't concrete forms and release agents seem to la seem to last or perform like they used to? Why don't they?Contractors are using the same forming systems and the same work methods, but something has changed. Has the move to type 1L cement changed the concrete enough that we need to rethink our formwork and release agents? That's what we're going to figure out today. So, like I said, my guests are Ken Pratt and Jonas DeWeber. Ken is the technical director for Swanson Group. He chairs ACI 303 and is a voting member of ACI 347, ACI 309, and ACI 301F.He's also involved with ASCC Training and Educational Committee. Jonas is a strategic account manager with Nox-Crete and is active with several ASCC committees, including Training and Education, the Manufacturers Advisory Council, and the Technical Committee. so we're gonna, like I said, these fellows are gonna help us talk about what has changed with our concrete and how it's affecting our forms. But before we get started, just shRemind everybody how you can support the podcast. The first thing you can do, the easiest thing you can do is if you enjoy the show, please share it with a colleague or coworker. And we're on every single podcast platform plus YouTube. So not hard to find. the next way is if you go to concretelogicpodcast.com, there's a couple ways you can get a hold of me. at the top of the web the homepage, there's an ask Seth.option in the navigation bar. You click on that and a email form pops up and you can send me a note. And what I'm looking for from you is I want to have t tell me what you want to learn. 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We have I think between 120 and 130 members on there.but for today's show, we asked our concrete logic academy members to send us questions for Ken and Jonas. so if you're on there, shoot some questions on to the Academy. All right. Fellas, let's roll right into the topic at hand. I guess the first question is.Has C595 blended hydraulic cement impacted cast in place concrete mix designs and our formwork.Who wants to tackle that one?Jonas & Ken (05:11)Absolutely.And I think we're both gonna tackle that. I'd like Jonas to talk a little bit more on the C minute because he's got a little better background and I'll talk a little bit about how that impacts the formwork.Yeah, I I think when you you think of C595 Type 1L and the blended that they have impacted our the cast and play structural concrete. they've anywhere from it could have a dramatic increase on stripping cycle. You know, it's just taken a little bit longer for these mix designs to come to strength before the wall is or or deck is self sustaining. But I think the bigger thing that's come into it is that we've seen a change in how these C595s are affectingThe plywood. And I'll let Ken touch on the plywood aspect. From a chemistry aspect or from the physical side of the concrete mixes, what we're seeing is we're seeing more aggressive mix designs. There's more reactive component that is that is being exposed to the concrete. And so what we're seeing is we're seeing a consumption of the phenolic resins. We're seeing where our release agents aren't as effective. There's not enough.Reactive component in the release agent. I'll back up a little bit. Most release release agents today are what we call reactive release agents. So instead of being the very old school, you know, barrier component, so if people would use their imagination a little bit with me and think of a cast iron skillet when you're cooking in a in a cast iron skillet, right? We're gonna put a fat down. We're gonna put down a layer of butter, we're gonna cook our egg, nothing sticks. And for years traditionally, that's the what our release agents were. They were just mainly what we call barrier component.And then, the evolution of of of the reactive release agents, what we've done is we're now intro we're we're making the release agents more acidic, higher, you know, the higher acid number to them. And so what happens is there's you get a you get aThe two cancel each other out, right? So the acid reacts with the alkalinity. The alkalinity, they create this soap-like film, this bubble on the surface between the concrete and your form ply. That's what create it's it's a water, you know, this soap, this mineral soap that's created between from the release agents is waterproof. But when concrete hits it, it starts to foam a little bit. So when you vibrate, it's got air to go to. It helps maintain the form, helps clean the form. If the form's absorption the form surface is absorbed.It reintroduces the fats back into the surface, conditioning to the wood. And what we're seeing with these mix designs is that they're so alkaline now as they're pushing through the release agent. And so maybe the and so in that your phenolic resins are more exposed to that water because now we've delayed the set of the concrete. We're now that water that's bringing that alkalinity into that con into that form surface is now sitting there even longer than what it traditionally was. So not only are theymore alkaline, the exposure of that overlay because of that little bit slower setting time, and God forbid slower setting time in the winter, now that overlay is exposed to even more of that incredibly harsh nature of the concrete.Seth (08:08)So this is changingJonas & Ken (08:08)SoSeth (08:09)yeah. Go ahead. Keep going.Jonas & Ken (08:11)I I I was just gonna say, and so that at times I get a phone call because of course any time something's wrong with your concrete it's the plywood's fault. Or it's mine. It's it's one of our self-defense lawyers here.Seth (08:25)Right.Jonas & Ken (08:25)And I get this call. Well I usedLet's say our Swanson high flow in Texas as an or in Ohio. We're in Ohio, so let's use Ohio because this is real this winter. And normally you get on a podium pro shore tightened system, you might get seven or eight reuses. And after two, it's looking very worn out. And so those areas that Jonas just described, that chemical reaction, is breaking down that surface tension of that overlay, breaking down that phenolic, and it's literallyLiterally eating away at it. And we've got dozens and dozens of stories at it, but now the contractor who had bought the plywood expecting to get seven, he's hoping he now can get seven, but the concrete doesn't look very good after two or three because the concrete was so harsh. Now, on that particular story, when we were looking at the concrete mix, I was nervous about recommending high flow, and I wanted to move up to our classic, which has a lot more alkali resistance, which has a lot more duration.Ability can handle these harsher, more reactive concrete mixes. But contractor chose to stay with the BMAC because that's what they've always done.So that's where the challenges become is more about panel selection. And we make 14 different types of concrete forming, and we've had to do that because of all of this stuff. And we can get into why HDO blushes, different types of HDO blushes with this highly reactive mixes as we go down this road. But it really the mix has changed your it changes your mindset. And now you have to study your mix and understand your mix before you can really select the form.Seth (09:56)Yeah, do you think this is a good spot, Ken, to talk about the differences between MDO and HDO, what they are? ButbutJonas & Ken (10:05)Yeah, we could do that for folks who need to understand. MDO stands for medium density overlay. That means a type. Within each type there's differentGrades and different performance criteria for an MDO. But typically an MDO will give you a flat or a semi-gloss flat mat type finish where you can paint directly over the concrete because it's leaving that flat texture with the concrete. It's typically used in deck applications, horizontal applications, typically where you're going to need less than 10 reuses. You'll see a lot of architects and scopes will ask for an MDO.Remember an MDO is a type, and within that type we make seven of them, seven different types of MDOs. Then you move up to an HDO which stands for high density overlay. It's typically used in vertical applications. It's got better alkali resistance, leaves you with a semi-gloss finish. We make five different types of HDOs that are designed for different applications, different finishes, even though they all do give you a semi-gloss finish. Just for your audience, then there's PSF.phenolic surface film. A lot of people know it as phenolic, or a lot of people know it as Russian board or Finn board. And that's a phenolic surface film, and that has wax in it, so that's what gives you that high gloss look. But as far as durability and alkalinity, HDO and PSF are very similar when designed properly. Just depends on the panel and the brand as to which one has more alkalinity. So from a generic high-level, that's the three different types.types of form forming overlays that are in the market.Yeah, I I wanted to to say share a little bit with, you know, withWith the the the alkaline that alkaline nature of the concrete mix, what we know is that we're seeing alkaline concrete alkalinity increase ever since the inception or the popularity of Type 1L's. And what you know, years ago it was pretty common. You could see it a nine or you could see a ten on the alkaline pH scale of what that concrete is. But today we're seeing routinely tens, eleven, twelves, and thirteens, and what's really important to understand about that scale, that alkalinity scale, it'sthat it's loggedso that every jump in number is a factor of 10. So if we go from a 10 to an 11, we're 10 times more alkaline. And if we go from a 12 from a 10, we're now a hundred times more alkaline. And if we're up in the 13s, we're now a thousand times more alkaline. So that means that alkalinity is so much more concentrated out of a 13, and what that's going to do to that overlay, you know, how it's going to attack, and how it's good.just gonna start to consume that phenolic resin that saturated that paper overlay.Seth (12:41)Yeah. And is that changing I guess we're we're talk we've talked about chemistry a lot on the show. So we're imagining the chemistry with the release agents are actingJonas & Ken (12:54)Mm-hmm.Seth (12:54)differently with this. So our I don't know if this was one of the questions in our on our list, butJonas & Ken (12:59)Yeah, it is.Seth (13:01)so are we are we changing are we changing our release agents to go along with the con with the concrete change? Yeah.Jonas & Ken (13:06)We're we're trying to. We'retrying to. So the the the issue I think the issue at hand for for the national guys like like Nox-Crete or s or or others is that you're trying to create a release agent that can be used in every part of the country under every circumstance, right? And soWe have actually in certain markets sell certain customers, we sell release agents with a really high acid number to it. Well what we define in in our nomenclature as an acid number. And so because the concrete that they're being exposed to, the alkalinity is so high. Right? You can the if your if your acid number, if your reactive number in that release agent is low and your alkalinity is up here, this will actually push right through that release agent. And so you won't get a good finish. You won't get aGood release, you might see increased pin holes or bug holes. Whereas if you had a higher pH number, higher acid number in that release agent, you would combat some of those, and you would actually combat that surface of that concrete. Because what release agents are really doing, at least reactive release agents are really doing, is at the surface of the concrete at a microscopic microscopic level, we are retarded, we are retarding the paste at a very microscopic, and that's where the release comes from.Oil, unlessit is a barrier oil, is really just there as a carrying agent. Point A, out of the can, out of the sprayer, onto your form face, evenly spread.Seth (14:28)Huh. so in ideal world the the plywood is working with the release agent and what we're saying right now, that's not going that's not happening with some of these high alkaline mixes that we're dealing with now.Jonas & Ken (14:44)That's correct.Seth (14:45)So so how it so was gonna ask which one of you gets blame first, butJonas & Ken (14:51)I do.Seth (14:53)butSo I imagine, Ken, we're we're we're getting less uses of our plywood, right? So you're talking you'reJonas & Ken (15:00)Yes.Seth (15:00)talking your clients into maybe using a a more premium plywood and they're coming to you and saying, Hey, we're getting less uses. So what what's your response and w maybe what's some suggestions that you're giving folks to avoid this?Jonas & Ken (15:18)Sothe key is, and I'm working on this with a contractor out in California right now as we speak on a project or just getting ready to start, is we need to get involved in the pre-bid and the pre-construction phase. If contractors can get us involved, let's just say Jonas and I, involve and we do it quite often, in the pre-bid phase.or or at least the pre construction phase, we can begin to make sure we got the right release. We have the right panel, because every job's different and there's times, probably more times than not, the architect will say, I don't want release agent, which is we're having a issue with that right now in Seattle, because he probably had a bad experience with a release agent that stained the concrete because he was using something that he shouldn't have been. My point is isWe need to understand the scope of the project. What is the finish? What is are you looking for uniform color? Are you looking for structural? Are you looking for architectural? Reuse. How do we prepare the mock-up so that we can make sure we understand how the release is working with the concrete, how the plywood's working with the release, and what kind of finish you're getting? it even goes deeper than that. There's times Jonas and I will bring in our buddies on the vibrating side, because with this type oneIf you vibrate at a normal 12,000, 13,000 VPM, you'll push the water around and turn the concrete black, and you change and you just vibrate at 6,000, you get beautiful looking colored concrete. So the vibration is another piece of this puzzle that we have to bring into it. The other piece is admixtures. What type of admixtures are we adding to the mix? Because the admixtures impact the finish. So it's not a simple answer anymore. It's actually quite complicated and justGetting involved in having more people at the table, having more people in that pre-construction phase so we can get the right product, get the right mock-ups, and go down the trail. So we're not here's typically what happens, Seth, is we get a phone call on pour one or pour two that the world is coming to an end, and everything we thought we would know is not working, and my God, we need help. And that's where we're trying to prevent that.And ho and that one thing we get out of this session is if people start working at the pre-construction phase and pre-bid phase to select their plywood, because a lot of project managers have a budget number of what they think plywood's gonna cost, and so they just throw that in there for their estimating. And those that how we used to do things in the past needs to change because that's what's costing you a lot more money on the back end.I think one thing that I'd like to touch on that's more Ken's world than my world, but I'll touch on it because Ken didn't, was that I I think if one thing for people to take away from this today is that understand that the technology that is used in creating a phenolic overlay, right? That that impregn that resin impregnation into the paper that makes the overlay. That technology is roughly is arguably unchanged for what, forty years, fifty years? Eighty. Eighty years. So that that that phenolic resin over that resin is essentially unchanged.In80 years. Now, maybe some of the VOCs and carrying agents have changed, but it hasn't itself, right? But what are we seeing? We're seeing the overlays not last as long. Well, if we take a little bit of critical thinking and look, overlay technology really hasn't changed. The to how to make plywood really hasn't changed. Why is my overlay not lasting as long? What's what's changed the most?In the last five years. Arguably, without question, in my opinion, it's the concrete mix design. That is the biggest single factor in how your overlay or how much how long that plywood's gonna last. So everybody listening to this, if they just just look at it from that step back analytical process and go, that's yes, concrete has changed the most in the last five years.Seth (18:58)Yeah. So w when yeah.Jonas & Ken (19:00)And so what we're doing, Seth, is we've been doingresearch for the last five years on melamine resins and trying to moveThis old technology of phenolic, and we keep trying different things, and we kept improving. But we're kind of at point of its life cycle that melamines are the future. And I've been working on it for five years, and I'm kind of the guy that everyone looks to for melamine saturated overlays, whether we go to melamine MDOs and melamine HDOs. I mean, there's melamines out there now today that are 20 years old or 25-year-old technology. They work great, but they're not very user-friendly.friendly for the contractor and they're not very user friendly for the production at the plywood mill. So we're trying to make melamines more user friendly for both. And so that's what we're working on, but it's not something just gonna happen overnight. I'm hoping, you know, we've been at it five years. How soon are we going to get it? I don't know when we get it. We're pushing hard but we haven't got there yet.Seth (19:53)The melamines what what's different between that and and w what we're used to seeing, I guess.Jonas & Ken (19:58)So think of a pool ball at the pool hall. That pool ball is made out of melamine and it's very, very hard. you look at shelving material that's laminated to HDF or particle board f in not in the concrete industry, but just in cabinetry industry, that melamine is very, very hard. So the melamine resins can handle the higher alkalinity, can handle the higherpHs and not break down as fast and last longer. But their drawback in the old technology is they're very brittle, like glass, and hard to use. So we're trying to figure out how to make that work. And then in the mills, phenolic and melamine are like water and oil. They don't like each other. So then how do you transition it when you've got b when you're trying to you make both? So there's lots of complications to it. But the good news is one of the biggest problems with HDO in with this highly reactive mix.Is a lot of blushing. The concrete looks like your wife's foundation on her cheeks, so it looks like a rose color. And we're getting that a lot. And melamines do not blush. And so there's another reason why we're wanting to move to to melamine. And they just last longer in the overall poor life, right? With exposure to the alkaline nature of the concrete. They just last longer in that environment.Seth (21:11)Yeah. S so is I guess wouldn't it be easier I guess I haven't studied this too much. This is a new like topic for me. Didn't even know this was a problem until you guys reached out to me.Jonas & Ken (21:24)Ha ha ha.Seth (21:25)butIt wouldn't it be easier, I guess, to figure out what how to combine the release agent with the the how to make the concrete act like we want it to act with the instead of trying to come up with a new form that, you know, pro is probably gonna be hard to f I imagine to manufacture versus what we have today.Jonas & Ken (21:48)Well I think the over I think a overarching problem with that is is that the mix designs are different everywhere you go.Seth (21:55)Right.Jonas & Ken (21:56)Right? So how from a national you know level, how would you create a release agent combo plywood type of deal that's going to work in every location guaranteed?Seth (22:07)Well, I don't think that would be a solution. I don't think you don't do that with concrete. You can't do that with concrete,Jonas & Ken (22:12)Right.Seth (22:13)so you couldn't do what what interfaces with concrete. SoJonas & Ken (22:17)But that's what that but see, that's the challenge that we're up to because that's what's expected out of us.Seth (22:23)I gotcha. So when youJonas & Ken (22:24)Right? So Kenwait Ken Ken makes plywood in Eugene, Oregon, that's sold all over the all over North America. I make release agents in Omaha, Nebraska that's sold all over the world. And they're they're expected to perform everywhere they go, regardless of the condition or the mix design or anything that they're exposed to.Seth (22:43)Right.Jonas & Ken (22:43)Andas the cement industry's trying to get to zero carbon by twenty fifty.we're gonna be seeing type one P, Type 1 T, Type 1 C coming right behind Type 1L. we talk about it all the time at ACI and there's a at the convention in two weeks at ACI they're gonna be talking about that. What do those types of cements bring to the table? We don't know. And then they'reSeth (23:05)Yeah.Jonas & Ken (23:05)gonna bring their own set of problems and we haven't even figured out Type 1L yet. And that's where that's coming. And in Texas right now, because of Type 1L, they're trying to goback to 40% C150 mixes by importing cement. So this thing is is crazy. I mean Jonas has and have examples where people buy cement by carloads. They bring it into a region andFrom one truckload to the next, you have different properties within the reactivity of the cement. And for an example, on an HDO, it'll blush and turn rows on one. The next pour was cle is no problem. The next pour it blushes, the next pour it's no problem. So you're seeing the reactivity, and it's a lot has to do with the fineness of how they grind the cement. There's just a wide variety of things we're finding.Seth (23:55)Yeah. I hear your frustrations. But well, yeah,Jonas & Ken (23:58)Well ours are yours. I mean they're no different than for for you guys at Baker or anybody else.Seth (24:03)I mean it's it's on every level. yeah,soJonas & Ken (24:06)It it all boilsback down to understanding what's really going on and trying to get the right people at the table to have a conversation before you ever start the project. That's what it boils down to now.Seth (24:15)Yeah. So yeah, let'sgo let's let we started talking about that. Let's go back. So in the ideal world, we all as contractors and and and producers and everybody else that's involved with a con concrete construction project wanna be involved as early as possible, right? So itJonas & Ken (24:32)Yeah.Seth (24:33)it we believe that if we're in early on, the project will be more successful for everyone. So w in it ifIf you have an example or if you can explain an ideal situation, th when you get at what point do you get involved in the project that you can kinda you know I I'm not gonna say completely fix these problems, but mitigate a lot of the problems that you guys are seeing in the field. What what's the i ideal situation?Jonas & Ken (25:01)So I've got several contractors now that they're gonna bid a project and you have a four hundred page scope. You guys contractors know that. And the formwork section is ten pages. They'll they'llemail me that document, that PDF, and say, can you look at the scope of the project that the architect and the engineer, the design team had sent them that they're gonna bid and what plywood should we be using. So I'll go through and read it. Most of the time I'm confused and I don't know what plywood to recommend, so we have to go back to the design team and ask clarifying questions. Sometimes the design team says just use an MDO or just use an HDO. But their s their finished concrete specifications within that scope aresoSpecific or sometimes not specific that you need clarification. So that to answer your question, Seth, where I like to get started is right there. Because now we can ask the design team before the contractor ever bids it clarifying questions, make sure, and sometimes they even change the scope. The design team will change the scope based off the feedback they get from me. And then we can recommend the right plywood based off the mix, because the mix is in there as well. So that's really where it should start, and that's where.we are doing it more and more as contractors have problems and it gets expensive on the back end trying to clean it up because they get caught. And that's I would say the best way to start that set.Seth (26:18)Yeah. is there anything that you're finding that you see in the you know, in the mix designs that you're asking for changes or you're making changes on your side?Jonas & Ken (26:30)We I would say neither one of us asked for change. I mean we're not in a position to do that. What we'd like to do is point out what we see.Right? Like there's a good example of a project that happened in in Portland where it was a structural low carbon concrete mix design, super low water to cement ratio, pour the concrete, strip the forms, and it was damn near black concrete. Right? And and that wasThat whole thing could have been alleviated than the issues that came from that. If people like Ken and myself or the chemical guy, you know, the ready-mix plant, if we were part of that conversation and that dialogue, to say, okay, we understand what you're trying to obtain or get to, but you need to under also understand that there are implications that are going to be visible once you do that.And in that example the water cement ratio is point three four. And in a Type 1L mix, especially architectural mix,the recommendations point four three. So the concrete couldn't hydrate properly. We used the right release agent, which was Jonas. We applied the release agent properly. We have the right architectural con panel. The concrete, if you closed your eyes and ran your hand over the concrete, it felt like marble. It was absolutely gorgeous. But the concrete was starving for water and it was the color of my shirt and and it just wouldn't work. And the architect finally said, okay that's green concrete, let's move on and let's just keep doing everything that way and we'll just make black concrete. ButIf you would have been, like Jonah said, if we would have been able to look at the water cement ratio, we look at a lot of things, we could have prevented that. But we don't really have the ability to make any changes. All we can do is say, hey, look at this or look at that. Based on our experience, this could happen, most likely it'll happen. Let's do a mock-up before we get too crazy. Yeah, we just want to shine a spotlight on it.there's been, I'll be honest with you, Seth, that I've had calls. I got a call a couple years back from a job in in Miami from a big contractor. said, and he sent me these pictures and the concrete itself was blue. He sent me these photos and said, look what your release agent in. This is this is all supposed to be architectural concrete. Why is it cobalt blue? And the question that wrote back to him, I said, Is there is there slag in your mix?Yeah? Well, you poured on Friday and stripped on Monday. That's your problem. This has nothing to do so just fundamental understanding of what our make what are concrete mix designs doing outside of the prescriptive, what's my shrink, what's my strength, right? Like what's in there making this?Seth (28:51)Right. So you want to see the mix design?Jonas & Ken (28:55)Absolutely we love to see the mix design. We even thoughSeth (28:57)Right.Jonas & Ken (28:58)we don't sell concrete, we don't sell cement, we don't get involved but out of self defense we've had to learn.Seth (29:04)Right. Yeah. I think we all had to get smarterJonas & Ken (29:06)We're almost like aSeth (29:07)smarter about chim concrete chemistry in the lastJonas & Ken (29:10)Yes.Seth (29:10)five years. Six years now. Yeah, so so what what's going on with the concrete that it's changing color? Is it just gr it's so you're saying it it's so star for w for for water that it's it's grabbingJonas & Ken (29:22)It so in ifhave you ever seen blue concrete come out of your con out of your forms when you strip?Seth (29:29)No, that'd be a new one. I've had pink concrete and I haven't had blue concrete. Yeah.Jonas & Ken (29:32)yeah, that's the blushing. Soblue con when you have a high concentration of ground granulated blast furnace slag in your mix. And let's say as an example you pour on a Friday, you strip on a Monday, in a low oxygen environment, there's a really good chance that that blast furnace slag is going to turn blue in the concrete.And if you would have just cracked the form enough to let air down itThat problem would never exist. And one of the ways that you can, and I can show you offline pictures. one of the things that you can tell is that in the wall, there's there's intrude, there's intrusions, there's pipes going through the wall, or there's openings. And everywhereSeth (30:09)Right.Jonas & Ken (30:09)where there's an opening, you have a shadow box of gray, beautiful concrete, and then everything outside of that is blue, and that's from air could get here, but air couldn't get to the outer side.It's chemicalreaction with the slag. Yeah, and a simple conversation ahead of time, or are the people that were do on that project that are it's their job to understand that mix have would have taken a little bit deeper dive into that concrete mix design and understand that mix at a point greater than what's my strength, what's my shrink, what's my curl potential?We see blue all over the place, from the from the slag. Higher the percentage of slag we see that. the blushing, I kind of touched on that a little bit and it's the rose colorObama library turned rose color, it was really, really but they had a Blaine fineness grind on that cement of over six hundred. And if you look at if you look at C150, what we used to have, the Blaine spec for that was like two fifty to three fifty, and now we're the C595 typically is four fifty to six hundred. And so in basic chemistry, the finer you grind it, the more water, the more reactivity. So that's what's causing that. And then the if you don't get enough water.In your mix, your and your concrete is starved for water, or you use the wrong formwork, the wrong MDO, wrong HDO, and that mix is so reactive, it pushes the water right through into the wood, and the wood sucks up all the water, and then the concrete is starving for water because the concrete is suck the panel sucked up all the water because of the change in the mix. Now the concrete's a very dark, dark, dark gray, not a nice light gray. And if the concrete itself doesn't have enough water in it, it'll turn black.So all these things areSeth (31:48)Yeah.Jonas & Ken (31:49)occurring and of course the release agent in the plywood is what's causing all these color changes and it's not. Let's park the bus. Right on us.Seth (31:56)Yeah.SoJonas & Ken (31:58)We've lost Seth. I think we've got him confused.Seth (31:58)So and do we need to haveyeah, I was I'm trying to do three things at once. Hey so we've we've talked about on the show about doing a you know specifications that are based on performance versus being,Jonas & Ken (32:13)Mm-hmm.Seth (32:14)you know, prescriptive. so it it sounds like that's what kind of what we need to do with our fourour formwork and our release agents, right? We just need to tell you guys what our the end result needs to be and you tell us how to get there ba as long as we share what our mix design is.Jonas & Ken (32:32)well we'll we'll we'll tell ya I'll tell you what Ken and I will tell you the best release agent and the best plywood surface to get there. Or to have the least amount of problems. Yeah. But we're and we can help maybe highlight a few things in the mix design that might create some issues.But we're gonna let the people who design mix designs design mix designs. Sometimes when I get that phone call I'll call in people from the admixture folks, or I'll call in an architectural consultant who deals with those mix designs and other things. Sometimes we'll call in a vibrator guy and all these contacts I've made at the ACI over the last decade. And sometimes we'll get eight or nine people involved in a conversation, becauseIt's the old thing, phone a friend and get experts in all these different areas, right? Because we're def we're we are definitely not the expert in all the areas, but we know the people who are. ButSeth (33:23)Yeah.Jonas & Ken (33:24)hearing real world scenarios and experiences,Seth (33:26)Yeah,yeah. We had I'd share I'd share this in a minute. What I was getting at, I'm not asking you guys to change the mix designs. What I'm saying is if we tell you what finish we want,Jonas & Ken (33:36)Yes.Seth (33:38)then you guys can advise us how to get there versus like Kent Ken was sayingJonas & Ken (33:40)Absolutely. We do that all the time. Absolutely.Seth (33:43)you know, you're looking at the formwork specifications, which is thirty two thousand, right? Is that right? Thir thirty two hundred. Yep, yep.Jonas & Ken (33:50)About there, yeah. Yeah, thirty two hundred.Seth (33:53)thirty two hundred or d depends on when you started in in construction. know, the specifications they went to the different you know what I'm talking about. AnywaysJonas & Ken (34:03)Yes, we do.Seth (34:07)yeah, that's what I was getting at. I'm not asking you guys to become mixed designers. I'm I'm I'm I'm asking you guys to tell us, to advise us, say, hey, we want a class A finish. How do we get there with this mix design?Jonas & Ken (34:17)Yep.Absolutely. I I I think well I'll let me give you a really good example of a situation that I was in a number of years ago with a with a contractor out of out of Dallas. They had a really they had a a building mid-level high rise and the outside was gonna have some architectural arches that were done, you know, cast in place, tall arches.And the con the architect had specified a type of MDO plywood that would absolutely not pr produce the architectural finish that he stated right underneath what he prescribed for his plywood. And so I was working with the contractor, I'm like, did this and talk to Ken and like this piece of plywood that's being advised to you right now will not give you that finish.And there's we see, I know Ken does, I do, we see a lot of that where the prescriptive or the the the misunderstanding of the re of the form surface and release agent to obtain the specified appearance are just wrong.Seth (35:12)Yeah. All right. Well, if if there was one thing that you want our listeners to take away from today's show, Ken, what what would that be?Jonas & Ken (35:22)Get involved in understanding the mix is going to do to your finish and your surface.and how that ties with the formwork and the release agent. And if you don't know, stop and ask and seek help. Now if you're using Swanson plywood, I would be that guy. If you're using someone else, you need to contact that manufacturer and see what they're going to say or do. That every time we do that one thing, we have a successful project every time. Most of the time when we do not do that thing, it's a finger pointing contest.then everyone gets upset. So that would be the one thing I would suggest.Seth (35:57)All right, Jonas, what do you say?Jonas & Ken (36:00)A lot of what Ken said, I would say number one is as the concrete contractor, understand that mix design more than just your place and finish. Or or not just place and finish, but understand more of just your what's my PSI, what's my strength, right? Understand what's in it. Understand if there's a high level of SCMs in that mix, what does that have or what is that impact on what I'm trying to achieve or what I'm trying to pour.And then the last thing I would ask out of any contractor to take away from this is that the concrete that we do today is not the concrete we did five years ago. So the things we did five years ago a lot of times are not best practices for things to do today.And that we are in an ever-changing and evolving world when it comes to concrete and what we do on a daily basis needs to match the products that are given to us or that we're we're using in the field and not so much what we grew up using. Be open to to adjusting what we do as our career.Because somebody convinced us getting into the world of concrete was a great idea.Seth (36:59)Yeah. All right. Jonas,while we got you, i if folks wanna reach out and learn and and bug you for questions or learn more about Nox-Crete, what's the best way?Jonas & Ken (37:10)they can hit me up on you said you have my phone number or my email address on your site?Seth (37:15)Yeah, yeah. We can lead put everybody or orJonas & Ken (37:18)Yeah.Seth (37:18)tell everybody just go to the link if that's if that's the best way. Same with you, Ken.Jonas & Ken (37:21)Yep. Best way I'mI'm not a big social media guy. Don't have like Instagram you know, I don't do any of that stuff. SoSeth (37:27)You don't havea form release TikTok videos you send out or anything?Jonas & Ken (37:32)They don't want this mug on a daily basis.Seth (37:37)What how about you, Ken?Jonas & Ken (37:39)State of the art. I put a lot of photos on that website of what panels are gonna yield and finishes.There's some how-to, we're we're constantly adding more to it. So I'd say swansongroup.biz, that website, and then under products and concrete form, we're constantly adding more and more to it all the time. that's kind of where I try to help folks go because we're trying to turn that website into a a library for education.Seth (38:08)Cool. That's great. We're all about education here. All right, fellas. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show today. definitely I learned a few things. And we'll we'll get this episode out so everybody else does too as well. so thank you. Especially since you're traveling. Appreciate you doing that. All right.Jonas & Ken (38:27)You're welcome. Thankyou for having us. This is great. I love your podcast and and appreciate what you do.Seth (38:32)Allright. Well I appreciate that as well. and folks, until next time, let's keep it concrete.