EP #164: Concrete Maturity Gone Wrong

Seth (00:00)And welcome to another episode of the Concrete Logic Podcast. And today I have Concrete Adamus back with us. Jon Belkowitz is back on the show. And today we're going to talk about concrete maturity method, what we get wrong about the concrete maturity method specifically. So stick with us. Learn what the maturity method is and what we do not do correctly.But before we get into the topic at hand, I just want to share with you how you can help the podcast. If you if you enjoy the podcast, get some value out of it, please share it with a colleague or coworker. the next thing you can do is if you go to concrete logic podcast dot com, there's a couple ways you can get a hold of me. One is at the top, there's a navigation menu.And there's an ask Seth option on there. If you click on that, it opens up an email form. and what we're looking for are topic or guest suggestions. So folks a lot of the episodes are folks reaching out suggesting topics or suggesting guests. So that's what we're looking for is some some suggestions. Not telling you I'm gonna take it, but I you know, or use it, but it's gotta be something concrete related.And something you want to learn about. All right. No climate change? yeah. If you want to talk about climate change, we can do that. anyhow. Daniel's a good one to talk to about that. Okay. See, that's how it works. So Dan see, J Jon suggests Dan McCoy to come on the podcast to talk about climate change. See easy as that. it i if you don't want toConcrete-Adamus (01:10)No climate change.Daniel's a good one to talk to about that.Seth (01:30)write out your your suggestion. You can also leave me a voicemail and you can do that on the same homepage on the concrete logic podcast dot com. There's a little microphone in the bottom right hand corner. You click on that and it'll record your message and then it sent sends that voicemail over to me. So you can do that as well. the next way you can do is you can donate to the show. 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Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.Seth (02:41)is concrete logicacademy dot com or concrete school dot co. that's what we did was we took the same topics that we discussed on here and we expanded them more. so you can go on there become a member of Concrete Logic Academy. there's a bunch of courses on there that you can take. there's quizzes attached to these courses as well.And there's also different re you know, references, white papers. there's a way for you to post your own questions if you got questions you want to discuss on there. you can post things that you want to share with other members. So it's it's a cool little platform for concrete folks. so check that out. How many members do have now? s over sixty as of recording right now, sixty something. SoConcrete-Adamus (03:09)Books.How many members do you have now?Seth (03:27)It's it's growing. Pretty good now. Yeah, yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. so yeah. So let's get into topic and so what w what we're gonna talk about is what we get wrong about the concrete maturity method. So Jon, if you want to I guess get us started and give us a refresher, I think y'all are gonna have to look this up. I think it was episode ninety six that we yeah, it was a long time ago.Concrete-Adamus (03:27)Wow, that's pretty good, man. proud.Mm-hmm.Stand by. Yep.Seth (03:53)Yeah. So understanding the maturity measured and concrete construction.Concrete-Adamus (03:54)Understanding the maturity measured in concrete construction.Seth (03:57)Yeah. so we did talk about that way back then, if you want to go back and listen to that one, but we didn't really talk about what what we what we get wrong with the maturity method. So we're gonna discuss that today. But let's just refr do a refresher. What is the maturity method? Right. So the maturity method is a way for us to approximate concrete strength. Do you wantConcrete-Adamus (04:11)Right, so the maturity method is a way for us to approximate concrete strength. Do you want me to shareSeth (04:19)Share my shtick. I mean most of the folks are gonna be listening and they can'tConcrete-Adamus (04:19)my shtick? I mean, most of the folks are gonna be listening and they can't see.Seth (04:24)see. Yeah. Whatever you wanna do, if you wanna share. Yeah, the great thing about this folks, Seth is gonna have this on the Concrete Logic Academy in some form. So you'll be able to see all these slides and the references. And when that's gonna be, it'll be at a later date. but yeah, I don't think I need to share these slides, Seth. Okay. Just walk.Concrete-Adamus (04:25)You know, the great thing about this, folks.Seth is gonna have this on the Concrete Logic Academy in some form. So you'll be able to see all these slides and the references and when that's gonna be it'll be at a later date. but yeah, I don't think I need to share these slides, Seth.Seth (04:46)Walk us through it. So what is the maturity method?Concrete-Adamus (04:48)Sure, and it's based off of ASTMC ten seventy four.Seth (04:50)Sure, and it's based off of ASTMCten seventy four.Concrete-Adamus (04:54)Great, great read, and I believe it was authored by a guy named Nicholas J. Carino. It's about eleven pages, pure poetry.Seth (04:55)Great, great read and I believe it was authored by a guy named Nicholas J. Carino. It's about eleven pages, purepoetry.Concrete-Adamus (05:06)And the definition of maturity is concrete of the same mix at the same maturity has approximately the same strength, whatever combination of temperature and time to make up said maturity.Seth (05:07)And the definition of maturity is concrete of the same mix at the same maturity has approximately the same strength, whatever combination of temperature and time to make up said maturity.So if I have a certain concrete, I don't know, let's say a six hundred and fifty-eight.Concrete-Adamus (05:26)So if I have a certain concrete, I don't know, let's say a six hundred and fifty eighttotal cementitious at a water cementitious ratio of a zero point four five, and I'm mixing it in Colorado during the dog days of summer.Seth (05:34)Total cementitious at a water cementitious ratio of a zero point four five. And I'm mixing it in Colorado during the dog days ofsummer.Concrete-Adamus (05:44)At four hours from when water touches cement, it's going to reach a certain strength.Seth (05:44)at four hours from when water touches cement, it's gonna reach a certainstrength.Concrete-Adamus (05:50)That evaluation of temperature and time, or excuse me, temperature and time to give us a certain strength, we call that maturity. If I take that same mix and I produce it and use it in the well of winter, when it's like negative 10 to 20 degrees outside Fahrenheit.Seth (05:51)That evaluation of temperature and time, or excuse me, temperature and time to give us a certain strength, we call that maturity. If I take that same mix and I produce it and use it in the well of winter, when it's like negative ten to twenty degrees outside Fahrenheit.Concrete-Adamus (06:17)It's gonna take us a lot more time to reach that temperature to get that strength and maturity. And the reason why I'm doing this with my hands, there's an area under that curve, under that temperature and time curve that we call maturity.Seth (06:17)It's gonna take us a lot more time to reach that temperature to get that strength and maturity. And the reason why I'm doing this with my hands, there's an area under that curve, under that temperature and time curve that we call maturity.Right. Right? No matter what happens, you've got to get the area under that curve. So if the temperatureConcrete-Adamus (06:38)Right? No matter what happens, you've got to get the area under that curve. So if the temperatureis not high enough, then you need more time. If the temperature is really, really high, you don't need that much time.Seth (06:46)Is not high enough, then you need more time. If the temperature is really, really high, you don't need that muchtime. So s just simply put, the maturity method is a way to estimate early age concrete strength based on concrete's temperature history over time. Is that fair statement? Yes. Okay. I would I would take the word estimate out. Maybe it is a good word. I like to use the word approximate. Okay.Concrete-Adamus (07:05)Yes. I would I would take the word estimate out. Maybe it is a good word. I like to use the word approximate. Approximate.Seth (07:15)Approximate. I don't like using the word predict.Concrete-Adamus (07:16)I don't like using the word predict.Dangerous.Seth (07:18)Dangerous.Yeah. Now where do we go wrong? Yep. There's something called the datum temperature. Right? We're we're using two equations here. One of them is called the time temperature. The other one is called the Urhenius equation. Or the Urhenius method. Or equivalent age method. Not the topic.Concrete-Adamus (07:20)Hm. Now, where do we go wrong?There's something called the datum temperature. Right? We're we're using two equations here. One of them is called the time temperature. The other one is called the Urhenius equation. Or the Urhenius method or equivalent age method. Not the topicfor our discussion today.Seth (07:46)For our discussion today.Concrete-Adamus (07:47)We're gonna talk about the time temperature factor. And in itSeth (07:48)We're gonna talk about the time temperature factor. And initConcrete-Adamus (07:52)Is thisSeth (07:52)Is thislittle variable? And and before we were talking or before we started this, Seth said I showed him the equation and Seth said, go ahead, Seth. I said back in when I was in college eons ago, when I saw that math pop up on the s the screen, like you know, in class, that's when I decided thatConcrete-Adamus (07:54)little variable. And and before we were talking or before we started this, Seth said I showed him the equation and Seth said, Go ahead, Seth.Seth (08:15)I wasn't supposed to be there. 'Cause it was like Yeah, that doesn't look interesting to me whatsoever. So that was all right when that's when I thought I was gonna be an engineer. Like a legit engineer like you. And I think you are a legit engineer. You just don't have the letters after your name. Yeah. But a engineer, the definite engineer is a problem solver and that's what we're doing right now.Concrete-Adamus (08:22)All right, soAnd I think you are a legit engineer. You just don't have the letters after your name. But a engineer, the definite engineer is a problem solver, and that's what we're doing right now.So the the equation that Seth was talking about was the equation to determine the area under the curve or said matured. Hold on, baby. Hold on, one second.Seth (08:37)So the the equation that Seth was talking about was the equation to determine the area under the curve or said matured. Hold on, baby. Hold on onesecond.Concrete-Adamus (08:51)What's what's going on, baby?Seth (08:51)What's what's going on,baby?Concrete-Adamus (08:52)Sorry about that, baby girl.Seth (08:52)Sorry about that, baby girl.Concrete-Adamus (08:54)You turned that thing up again, didn't you?Seth (08:54)You turned that thing up again, didn'tyou? I didn't. Go keep going. So the equation that Seth is talking about is maturity equals theConcrete-Adamus (08:58)So the equation that Seth is talking about is maturity equals theTime that you're looking at, like the I'm sorry, the temperature that instantaneously happens your snapshot and time minus something called the datum temperature times your change in time. And Seth looked at that and said, hell no. Now that's just one piece of it. You have to relate that to strength. But in that equation,Seth (09:07)Time that you're looking at, like the I'm sorry, the temperature that instantaneously happens your snapshot and time minus something called the datum temperature times your change in time. And Seth looked at that and said, hell no. Now that's just one piece of it. You have to relate that to strength. But in that equation,Concrete-Adamus (09:35)Which is a delta T, a change in temperature, your time and temperature minus your datum temperature. The datum temperature is what most people assume incorrectly. Or totally effing ignore it.Seth (09:35)Which is a delta T, a change in temperature, your time and temperature minus your datum temperature. The datum temperature is what most people assume incorrectly. Or totally effing ignoring.What is datum temperature? Datum temperature is the minimum temperature that you need to kick off the kinetics of cement hydration.Concrete-Adamus (09:52)Datum temperature is the minimum temperature that you need to kick off the kinetics of cement hydration.I'm dumbing it down or I'm not you know, I'm squishing it. Thank you.Seth (10:00)I'm dumbing it down or I'm not you know, I'm simplifying it. Dumbingit down for me, simplifying it for all those that are listening. For the equivalent age method, which is the other method that we use, it doesn't use that, it uses something called activation energy. And what that means is there needs to be a certain amount of energy that the concrete has or the cement has through hydration.Concrete-Adamus (10:08)For the equivalent age method, which is the other method that we use, it doesn't use that, it uses something called activation energy. And what that means is there needs to be a certain amount of energy that the concrete has or the cement has through hydrationfor the maturity to take off. Anything below that temperature or below that activation energy.Seth (10:29)for the maturity to take off. Anything below that temperature or below that activation energy,Concrete-Adamus (10:37)Concrete falls asleep.Seth (10:37)concrete falls asleep. Sh doesn't wake up, doesn't start gaining strength. And if it does, it's very low and slow.Concrete-Adamus (10:40)Doesn't wake up, doesn't start gaining strength, and if it does, it's very low and slow.Seth (10:46)Cool. Got it. Okay. So when I say ASTM is amazing, there are some awesome quotes in it. And again, I I I I used to have the privilege, nay, the pleasure of working with Nicholas J. Carino at ASTM. And not only is he a great author, he is a humble editor who devotes a crap load of time.Concrete-Adamus (10:48)Okay. So when I say ASTM is amazing, there are some awesome quotes in it. And again, I I I I used to have the privilege, nay, the pleasure of working with Nicholas J. Carino at ASTM. And not only is he a great author, he is a humble editor who devotes a crap load of time.So in that, at the middle section of a ASTMC 1074, it says for the datum temperature for type one cement without admixtures and occuring temperature range from zero to forty degrees Celsius, sorry, the recommended datum temperature is zero degrees Celsius. For other conditions,Seth (11:14)So in that, at the middle section of a ASTMC 1074, it says for the datum temperature for a type one cement without admixtures and a curing temperature range from zero to forty degrees Celsius, sorry, the recommended datum temperature is zero degrees Celsius. For other conditions,Concrete-Adamus (11:41)And when maximum accuracy of the strength estimation is desired, the appropriate datum temperature can be determined approximately or experimentally according to the procedures in appendix X one.Seth (11:41)And when maximum accuracy of the strength estimation is desired, the appropriate datum temperature can be determined approximately or experimentally according to the procedures in Appendix Xone.That's a lot.Concrete-Adamus (12:00)Well the first sentence is what matters most.Seth (12:00)Well, the first sentence is what mattersmost.Concrete-Adamus (12:03)Who has a concrete that has a type one cement at a water cementitious ratio of a zero point four without admixtures and a curing temp from zero to forty degrees Celsius?Seth (12:03)Who has a concrete that has a type one cement at a water cementitious ratio of a zero point four without admixtures and a curing temp from zero to forty degrees Celsius?Concrete-Adamus (12:19)It's justSeth (12:20)It's justConcrete-Adamus (12:20)So, what does datum temperature mean? If I took that type 1 cement to a type 3, it's a faster setting cement, my datum temperature is lower. Meaning, because I'm using a finer cement that kicks off like a bat out of hell when I add water to it, it can set up in lower temperatures.Seth (12:20)So, what does datum temperature mean? If I took that type 1 cement to a type 3, it's a faster setting cement. My datum temperature is lower. Meaning, because I'm using a finer cement that kicks off like a bat out of hell when I add water to it, it can set up in lower temperatures. OrConcrete-Adamus (12:47)That maturity cycle can happen in lower temperatures. Now, if I'm using something likeSeth (12:48)That maturity cycle can happen in lower temperatures. Now, if I'm using something likeConcrete-Adamus (12:55)A type 2 cement, or what is that? A type 5? Or let's go to an oil well cement. That is the grainness of it's huge, they're coarse grains. It needs a higher temperature, higher datum temperature to start kicking off the activation energy or the maturity process. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mix up words. And that's why the oil well cement guys use them.Seth (12:55)A type 2 cement, or what is that, a type 5? Or let's go to an oil well cement. That is the grainness of it's huge, they're coarse grains. It needs a higher temperature, higher datum temperature to start kicking off the activation energy. Or the maturity process. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to mix up words. And that's why the oil well cement guys usethem.Concrete-Adamus (13:24)Because they're going underground where there's a lot higher pressures as well as a lot higher temperatures. Especially with the amount that they're pumping and things colliding and blah blah blah.Seth (13:25)Because they're going underground where there's a lot higher pressures as well as a lot higher temperatures. Especially with the amount that they're pumping and things colliding and blah blahblah. So they want the concrete to be liquid longer. Yeah. Because if if we did we oops, we gave them a type three cement, it would harden in the line because the datum temperature or excuse me, the temperature is hotter. So it's gonna set up faster.Concrete-Adamus (13:42)'Cause if we did we oops, we gave them a type three cement, it would harden in the line because the datum temperature or excuse me, the temperature is hotter. So it's gonna set up faster.That's the thing with concrete and cementitious materials. Temperature begets temperature. Hydration kicks off hydration.Seth (13:54)That's the thing with concrete and cementitious materials. Temperature begets temperature. Hydration kicks off hydration.Mm-hmm.So are you are like are you saying that we just need to make sure that we are s setting our maturity method? Maybe I think what you're getting at is that there's gonna be a different graph for each type of these concrete mixes, right? So you need to do let's can let's remind everyone how we set up the maturity method and then wellIs that one of the things we get wrong? No. It might jump in. Yes, but no, you said it perfectly. This is why I said you just don't have the freaking letters. Yeah. You're an engineer, man. You saw it. It's not that we have a different graph, it's we create a different graph and the wrong graph when we don't use the right datum temperature. Right. So let's say for our mix that you and I are using on an elevator shaft on one of your job sites.Concrete-Adamus (14:26)No, you see yes, but no, you said it perfectly. This is why I said you just don't have the freaking letters. You're an engineer, man. You saw it. It's not that we have a different graph, it's we create a different graph and the wrong graph when we don't use the right data temperature. So let's say for our mix that you and I are using on an elevator shaft on one of your job sites.I'm just gonna guess, but you guys have pretty strict form turning schedules. And if I was the project manager, at least for that phase of the project, I would want to use maturity so I can turn my forms as fast as possible. One, and two, validate the strengths that I'm getting from my lab.Seth (14:52)I'm just gonna guess, but you guys have pretty strict form turning schedules. Right. And if I was the project manager, at least for that phase of the project, I would want to use maturity so I can turn my forms as fast as possible. One, and two, validate the strengths that I'm getting frommy lab.Concrete-Adamus (15:16)That's what I want to do. Now, if I do those incorrectly, the second one I'm in or assuming the wrong learn long-term strength. Now I can core, I can rebound ham, I can Windsor probe. It's bad, and it might cause unnecessary lawsuits or coring, but it's not L or D, life or death.Seth (15:16)That's what I want to do. Now, if I do those incorrectly, the second one, I'm in or assuming the wrong learn long-term strength. Now I can core, I can rebound ham, I Windsor probe. It's bad and it might cause unnecessary lawsuits or coring, but it's not L or D. Lifeor death.Concrete-Adamus (15:44)With item number one, if I tell my crew to move forms at the wrong time.Seth (15:45)With item number one, if I tell my crew to move forms at the wrong time.Concrete-Adamus (15:53)I mean that's why we started using maturity. Back in the forties and fifties, we had some tragic accidents happen within a five year period because folks were pulling forms out, deck forms out, a lot sooner than they should. And that just you know, people died. there was a major disaster in Greenwood Village, Colorado, back in likeSeth (15:54)I mean that's why we started using maturity. Back in the forties and fifties, we had some tragic accidents happen within a five year period because folks were pulling forms out, deck forms out, a lot sooner than they should. And that just you know, people died. there was a major disaster in Greenwood Village.Colorado backin like 2007, 2008 time frame where they pulled forms too early and people. Yeah. so again, it goes back to why we use maturity and what we have to be careful of. SoConcrete-Adamus (16:20)two thousand seven two thousand eight time frame where they pulled forms too early and peopleso again it goes back to why we use maturity and what we have to be careful of. Sowith that datum temperature, the reminder is it's the minimum temperature needed to kick off the kinetics of cement hydration.Seth (16:38)With that datum temperature, the reminder is it's the minimum temperature needed to kick off the kinetics of cement hydration.Concrete-Adamus (16:47)So if we suom the wrong datum temperature.Seth (16:47)So if we suom the wrong datumtemperature.Concrete-Adamus (16:51)And we're trying to pull formsSeth (16:52)And we're trying to pullforms.Concrete-Adamus (16:54)We can assume so we're starting at zero. I can assume a datum temperature that's way too low, negative ten degrees Celsius.Seth (16:55)We can assume so we're starting at zero. I can assume a datum temperature that's way too low, negative ten degrees Celsius.Concrete-Adamus (17:05)And way too high, plus ten degrees Celsius. Remember our actual was at zero.Seth (17:06)And way too high plus ten degrees Celsius. Remember our actual was atzero. Right? If I say my datum temperature is really low, that means my cement can take off like a bat out of hell, like the type three.Concrete-Adamus (17:15)Right. If I say my datum temperature is really low, that means my cement can take off like a bat out of hell, like the type three.If I say my datum temperature is really high, that means I have a very coarse grained or slow setting or it needs that temperature to kick off. That makes sense, right?Seth (17:27)If I say my datum temperature is really high, that means I have a very coarse-grained or slow setting, or it needs that temperature to kick off. That makes sense,right? Yeah. So if I tell my maturity logger that the datum temperature is really, really low, it'll change the graph byConcrete-Adamus (17:40)So if I tell my maturity logger that the datum temperature is really, really low, it'll change the graph by pushingSeth (17:55)Pushing it up. It'll tell me to strip forms too early.Concrete-Adamus (17:55)it up. It'll tell me to strip forms too early.Seth (17:59)Mm-hmm. And what happens if I strip forms too early? People get hurt. Right. Now, if I choose the opposite, and now instead of telling me to strip forms way too early, it tells me to strip forms instead of at eight hours at 24 hours.Concrete-Adamus (18:01)And what happens if I strip forms too early?Right. Now if I choose the opposite and now instead of telling me to strip forms way too early, it tells me to strip forms instead of at eight hours at twenty four hours.What's happening now?Seth (18:20)What's happeningnow?Could impact your schedule. Your critical path. Right. And and twenty-four hours, folks, when I'm supposed to rip and strip at eight, my boss, Seth, is gonna friggin' roast me. What do you mean we're waiting twenty-four hours? Fair? Yeah. Okay. So by putting the cost into the datum temperature.Concrete-Adamus (18:23)Your critical path. And and twenty four hours, folks, when I'm supposed to rip and strip at eight, my boss, Seth, is gonna friggin' roast me. What do you mean we're waiting twenty-four hours?Okay. So by putting the cost into the datum temperature,not only can we stay consistent with our critical path, but we, you know, protect our laborers.Seth (18:47)Not only can we stay consistent with our critical path, but we, you know, protect our labors.Yeah. No.Concrete-Adamus (18:57)Questions about that before I go into long term impact?Seth (18:57)questions about that before I go into long term impact.Yeah, to di to determine datum temperature. So when you set up the concrete or the maturity method you you take samples of the concrete mix that you're gonna use and you break them at certainintervals of time and you're taking you're putting in the maturity meter inside each one of these cylinders and you're recording the temperature when you break these and that's forming your graph is that am I skipping a step yeah that sounded very pretentious let me say that again yes that is correct yeah yeah that's a very yachtConcrete-Adamus (19:26)No sir. Yeah. That sounded very pretentious. Let me say that again. Yes, that is correct. Yeah, yeah. That's a very yacht rock.Seth (19:37)Well,you've been a teacher at school now and you're professor at school, so Yeah. Academically that is correct. The the part that you're skipping is you're you're not skipping, you're mushing two parts together. Uh-huh. So you're right. You do need compressive strengths at a certain time and temperature to relate to your maturity curve. Right. That's something that you need. But the datum temperature, as it's said in that definition before.Concrete-Adamus (19:39)Yes, yes. Academically that is correct. The the part that you're skipping is you're you're not skipping, you're mushing two parts together. So you're right, you do need compressive strengths at a certain time and temperature to relate to your maturity curve. That's something that you need. But the datum temperature, as it's said in that definition before,it's a separate method where you're not doing concrete.Seth (20:04)It's a separate method where you're not doing concreteConcrete-Adamus (20:06)Crete strength, you're doing mortar cubes.Seth (20:07)shrinks, you're doing mortar cubes. Okay. And you are casting those mortar cubes in three different temperatures. Okay. The temperature that you're placing the concrete at normally and plus and minus temperatures around that. So this isConcrete-Adamus (20:11)And you are casting those mortar cubes in three different temperatures. The temperature that you're placing the concrete at normally, and plus and minus temperatures around them.Seth (20:28)This needs to be done before you do the cylinders, right? So the mortar That's what the other course is about. And how long does that take? my gosh, thirty-two days at a minimum. Okay. And that's if you have like a fully functioning lab. Okay. Yeah, that's what I wanted to get at there. Fifteen to twenty five thousand dollars. And you gotta do it each time you plan on using the method or the method, it has to be for the mix with the raw materials.Concrete-Adamus (20:32)That's what the other course is about.my gosh, thirty two days at a minimum. And that's if you have like a fully functioning lab.Fifteen to twenty five thousand dollars.For one minute.The method, it has to be for the mix with the raw materials.and it it should be what time of year to get your temperature swings. Shouldn't be more than like a twenty, thirty degree temperature swing, you know, plus or minus ten degrees from your your control or your zero orSeth (20:57)and it it should be what time of year to get your temperature swings. Shouldn't be more than like a twenty, thirty degree temperature swing, you know, plus or minus ten degrees from your your control or your zero.Okay. So you might have a winter mix and a summer mix that you need to do. Two yeah. Yeah. Totally different datum temperatures or activation energies. Okay. All right. I think that's an important point.Concrete-Adamus (21:15)to totally different datum temperatures or activation energies. Sorry.Seth (21:22)I think that's one of the things we mess up. And if people say, Whoa, it's expensive, fifteen, twenty five thousand dollars a mix. If you've got a major project, this shouldn't be done for residential homes. This should only be done when you need it. Mm-hmm. That fifteen thousand dollars will disappear quickly if you get your project done f i in in one week, two weeks early. Right. One day, two days early. Yeah, on a big project, that's nothing. Yep.Concrete-Adamus (21:23)Yeah. And if people say, it's expensive, fifteen, twenty-five thousand dollars a mix. If you've got a major project, this shouldn't be done for residential homes. This should only be done when you need it. That fifteen thousand dollars will disappear quickly if you get your project done f in in in one week, two weeks early. One day, two days early.But for some reason, I don't need to set myself up for a lawsuit. But if you look at any of these, let's use Pareto's law. 80% of the maturity companies out there don't even give you the option for datum temperature or activation energy. They assume it for you. And the ones that did.Seth (21:50)But for some reason, I I don't need to set myself up for a lawsuit. But if you look at any of these let's use Pareto's law, 80% of the maturity companies out there don't even give you the option for datum temperature or activation energy. They assume it for you. And the ones that did.Concrete-Adamus (22:19)Like I I've got the old Intelerock, which is not around anymore. Like I think Floor adopted it and then somebody else was gonna adopt it. But in it it had assumption of the or not assumption, it had you change the datum temperature. And for the longest time I was just zero, zero, it has zero in there for you. So I was using it without knowing what the hell I was doing. So this all comes from me making my own mistakes.Seth (22:20)Like I I've got the old Intelerock, which is not around anymore. Like I think Floor adopted it and then somebody else was gonna adopt it. But in it it had assumption of the or not assumption, it had you change the datum temperature. And for the longest time I was just zero, zero, it has zero in there for you. Mm-hmm. So I was using it without knowing what the hell I was doing. So this all comes from me making my own mistakes.Right.So there should be a a datum temperature for each type of cement that you use too, right? hell yeah. Cement, cementitious, admixture package.Concrete-Adamus (22:54)hell yeah. Cement, cementitious, admixture package.Seth (23:00)Okay.Concrete-Adamus (23:00)How many times when you're doing let's say an elevator shaft, how many times does your mix change?Seth (23:00)How many times when you're doing let's say an elevator shaft, how many times does your mix change?I mean it it changes from job to job, but in one job site though. It shouldn't change unless something comes up. I I got to do a major series of elevator shafts when I worked in Denver at the project. Uhhuh. Forty two stories and the name of the game was you know, it's not it's not slip form paving, obviously. It's calledConcrete-Adamus (23:09)In one job site though.I I got to do a a major series of elevator shafts when I worked in Denver at the project. Forty two stories and the name of the game was you know, it's not it's not slip form paving, obviously. It's calledSeth (23:32)Well you were just jump forms. Jump forms, yeah. Yeah, jump forms. Yeah. AndConcrete-Adamus (23:32)Jump forms. Yeah, jump forms. AndI remember when we got the timing wrong. And they moved those forms. Nobody asked questions like you we we're moving the forms? Yep, okay. And once they started going, there was no stopping it. And the concrete just started going blah blah blah blah blah.Seth (23:37)I remember when we got the timing wrong. And they moved those forms. Nobody asked questions. Like you we were moving the forms? Yep, okay. And once they started going, there was no stopping it. And the concrete just started going.no. And we had to tear down below it to build above it. Right. exciting project. that makes it more exciting. That was withConcrete-Adamus (23:52)And we had to tear down below it to build above it. exciting project. that was withHey, it was the first time that contractor was working in the state. We were going through major cement changes at the time. Every good job site has its hiccups. And the great thing is, is we found this out early. This was the coolest part.Seth (24:01)Hey, it was the first time that contractor was working in the state. We were going through major cement changes at the time. Every good job site has its hiccups. And the great thing is, is we found this out early. This was the coolest part.Concrete-Adamus (24:19)I don't know if I'm allowed to say the contractor's name, but they were amazing. They built me columns with like jackets around it with jockey boxes. And then I had these temperature-controlled water baths where I could put these wands in it that froze the water like close to freezing and beyond freezing using ethylene glycol in the water. Like after that hiccup happened.Seth (24:19)I don't know if I'm allowed to say the contractor's name, but they were amazing. They built me columns with like jackets around it with jockey boxes. And then I had these temperature-controlled water baths where I could put these wands in it that froze the water like close to freezing and beyond freezing using ethylene glycol in the water. Like after that hiccup happened.Concrete-Adamus (24:49)They built me maturity boxes. I mean, bought all the freaking Intel. That's why I own an Intelerock. I fell in love with it from that project in 2006, 2007. That job site went off without a hitch. I mean, it just it was such a pleasure. Such aSeth (24:49)They built me maturity boxes. I mean, bought all the freaking Intel. That's why I own an Intel Rock. I fell in love with it from that project in 2006, 2007. That job site went off without a hitch. I mean, it just it was such a pleasure. Such aConcrete-Adamus (25:14)The science combined with technology the science of concrete chemistry combined with maturity is why I fell in love with it. That was one of the b I I shared pictures of that of the matte foundation that we did.Seth (25:14)The science combined with technology the science of concrete chemistry combined with maturity is why I fell in love with it. Right. That was one of the b I I shared pictures of that of the matte foundation that wedid.Yeah. So we don't do work like that anymore. So so the datum temperature we get wrong. Was there another item that you wanted to highlight that we get wrong? Well, it was the no no no no. The datum temperature is it. Okay. I mean, i if you get that wrong, everything else you're doing is for naught. I mean, and the cylinders that you make, the only reason you can get that wrongConcrete-Adamus (25:31)They don't do work like that anymore.Well, it was the no no no no the datum temperature is it. I mean, i if you get that wrong, everything else you're doing is for naught. I mean and the cylinders that you make, the only re where you can get that wrong isbeing cheap on cylinders. I never understood that. You know, people are like I'm gonna break one at seven, one at twenty eight, and two at fifty six.Seth (25:56)is being cheap on cylinders. I never understood that. You know, people like I'm gonna break one at seven, one at twenty-eight, and two at fifty-six.Concrete-Adamus (26:05)Just break three, three and three. It's like fifteen to twenty bucks more a cylinder.Seth (26:05)Just break three, three, and three. It's like fifteen to twenty bucks more cylinder.Yeah. Just break Yeah. You got a plan ahead for these, so I mean that's all good concrete practices. Yeah. And by the way, just to let everybody know, Seth is messing with my microphone so I can hear my own voice echo and he's trying to make it tougher. He's trying to make me a tougher presenter, and I appreciate that. Mm-hmm. Well, you'll grow from this episode. Good job.Concrete-Adamus (26:11)Just break them.I mean that's all good concrete practices. And by the way, just to let everybody know, Seth is messing with my microphone so I can hear my own voice echo and he's trying to make it tougher. He's trying to make me a tougher presenter and I appreciate that.Yeah.Seth (26:37)Well, Dr. Jon, thank you for coming on the show. and I I think yeah, the datum temperature should be s we all take a take a hard look at that and how we plan it. I I it's been a long time since I've used the maturity method. Probably haven't talked about since we did the last episode and it's a good refresher that that that that step that needs to beConcrete-Adamus (26:40)Yeah, it's a pleasure.Seth (26:59)made before we go into actually breaking the cylinders with the the temperature readings. I think that's what everybody jumps to initially. We gotta make sure we have a datum temperature that's matches the mixed design that we're using. Agreed. do you have a few more seconds for me to show you the old Vitellera? yeah. Yeah.Concrete-Adamus (27:12)Agreed. do you have a few more seconds for me to show you the old Intelerock?And I just love this thing. There's there's some great products out there. I I definitely have my favorites. I'm not trying to sell anybody's product. And this, like I said, is no longer available. First of all, they gave you an amazing briefcase. I'm big into briefcase.Seth (27:17)And I just love this thing. There's there's some great products out there. I I definitely have my favorites. I'm not trying to sell anybody's product. Yeah. And this, like I said, is no longer available. First of all, they give you an amazing briefcase. Maybe they'll sponsor the show.We can tell a Telerock to sponsor the show. They don't exist anymore, no. I didn't think so. That's it's a shame. It's such a shame. Yeah. So they hadConcrete-Adamus (27:38)They don't exist anymore, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's a shame. It's such a shame. So they had temperatureSeth (27:45)Temperature meters. Yep. And mature or excuse me, temperature loggers and maturity loggers. So one allowed you just to see the temperature curve, which was valuable, and the other one was for maturity, which great. Here's the maturity logger,Concrete-Adamus (27:45)meters and mature or excuse me, temperature loggers and maturity loggers. So one allowed you just to see the temperature curve, which was valuable, and the other one was for maturity, which great. Here's the maturity logger.Which is why nobody liked it.Seth (28:05)which is why nobody liked it. Well, they all use their phones now, right? It's all Bluetooth. I know.Concrete-Adamus (28:11)I know.I what no, that's not true. There's a couple of companies that still have wired technologies that don't go directly to your phone, but whatever. The reason so we used to use these not just for the that Spire project, but also for I twenty five. I designed something called Cornelia Road Patch for a company called Lafarge North America. And the whole idea is it competed with asphalt in that.Seth (28:13)I what no, that's not true. No. There's a couple of companies that still have wired technology that don't go directly to your phone, but what I mean. Yeah. The reason so we used to use these not just for the that Spire project, but also for I twenty five. I designed something called Cornelia Road Patch for a company called Lafarge North America. And the whole idea is it competed with asphalt inthatConcrete-Adamus (28:41)Two hours after you placed it, you can open it up to traffic, but it still had two hours of workability and retention to it. So you had four hours between when water touched cement and when you opened up to traffic. So well, we still would place it at freaking ten o'clock at night. So my dumbass is the guy running across the highway 25 north in Thornton.Seth (28:41)Two hours after you placed it, you can open it up to traffic, but it still had two hours of workability and retention to it. So you had four hours between when water touched cement and when you opened up to traffic. Yeah, wow. That's fast. So well, we still replace it at frickin' ten o'clock at night. So my dumbass is the guy running across the highway twenty five north in Thornton.Concrete-Adamus (29:09)Trying to hook up these leads up in the middle of the night freezing with traffic. So yeah, it was scary as hell to use this in the middle of the night, butSeth (29:10)trying to hook up these leads up in the middle of the night freezing with traffic So yeah, it was scary as hell to use this in the middle of the night, butConcrete-Adamus (29:25)It's my favorite system. And yes, most of them are wireless now. But what I loved about this, they gave you this book where they went through everything how to use it, but it also went into how to customize it for your mix. And the datum temperature was one of the things that they forced you to emp enter.Seth (29:25)It's my favorite system. Yeah. And yes, most of them are wireless now. But what I loved about this, they gave you this book where they went through everything how to use it, but it also went into how to customize it for your mix. And the datum temperature was one of the things that they forced you to emp enter.Yeah. So right there, datum temperature screen.Concrete-Adamus (29:56)So right there, datum temperature screen.To leave at zero, press enter.Seth (29:58)To leave at zero, press enter.Yes. Not the right answer. Not the right answer. All right. So before yeah. Wait, wait, wait, wait. sorry, thought you were done. No. Before we had that, we had this which this pro plugged into this thing that we call the toaster oven. it was by Gilson. It was this box and they still have But this is what went into the concrete. These little wires. Yeah.Concrete-Adamus (30:02)Not the right answer. So before wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no. Before we had that, we had this, which this prop plugged into this thing that we call the toaster oven. it was by Gilson. It was this box, and they still have them, but this is what went into the concrete. These little wires.And it basically measured your heat.Seth (30:29)I do remember that. Basically measured yourheat or your temperature. Uhhuh. Something like that. So yeah.Concrete-Adamus (30:32)Or your temperature. Something like that. So yeah.Seth (30:36)It's a relic.Concrete-Adamus (30:36)It's a cool relic though. I'd love to use these, but I only have two laggers left. So you know.Seth (30:37)It's a cool relic though. I'd love to use these, but I only have two loggers left. Yeah. So I don't know.Concrete-Adamus (30:45)All right.Seth (30:45)Allright. All right, Doctor Jon. Thank you, sir. Thank you for coming back on the show. And again, yep, this is take a look at your datum temperature next time you're thinking about maturity method. Make sure you got it. And call your local laboratory. Yeah. They know. Yep.Concrete-Adamus (30:48)Thank you, sir.And call your local laboratory. They know.Seth (31:02)Well your supplier should know, right? Right. Your supplier won't be able to do the test for you. Well, no, they won't be able to do the test, but they should they should be no yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yes, sir. Yeah. All right. Thank you for coming on the show. And folks, until next time, let's keep it concrete.Concrete-Adamus (31:04)Your supplier won't be able to do the test for you.Correct. Yes, sir.